rration. The value was driven up by speculators.There are far too many variables to compare these two companies on the basis ofstock. The fact that 3DO is "giving" Panasonic stock, and overall marketconditions, make these kinds of comparisons rather useless...-----Subj: Re:News Games for Jag 94-09-01 17:27:44 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>The Internet has lots of talk going around about the new games coming soon tothe Jag in addition to the 40 or so we already know about like:<<<Not to be cynical, but isn't "a lot of talk going around about the new gamescoming soon to the Jag" what we've been hearing for the past 9 months with onlya handful of games to show for it? Believe it or not, even with the pro-3DOslant to my posts, I would really like to see Atari succeed with the Jag. I'vestated that they don't seem to have very strong capabilities at this point (dueto low cash position) and that pulling off a victory is an incredibly hard taskfor them, but if they can do it, more power to 'em. Atari needs to do somethingsubstantial between now and Xmas season to keep their heads abovewater....whether this is executing some marketing initiatives (such astime-based rebates or mall tours or whatever) or just getting more games on theshelves (even something simple like a "classic arcade" cartridge with Asteroids,PacMan, etc. in their original non-64-bit forms) before the likes of AvPhit...these kinds of things would help them a lot in preparing for Xmas.-----Subj: "2 to 1" Quote Source 94-09-01 23:27:49 EDT From: JBBJRPosted on: America OnlineI finally found a reference to my source for the quote from an Atarispokesperson that Atari is outselling the 3D0 2 to 1 in the US. This is not theoriginal quote (I'd have to sort through 7000 messages to find it), but aresponse quoting the original post: Tal Funke-Bilu (aexplorer@delphi.com) wrote:: 180Degrees <180degrees@delphi.com> writes: : : >>What market share..... : > :>>-Peter : : You ignorant Atari basher...with regard to American market share,the Jaguar : has outsold the 3DO over 2 to 1 (and that is with littlehardly any: advertising or in store displays). : : Tal Funke-Bilu : Atari CorporationTal is an editor of Atari Explorer Online and joined Atari as an employee.Now that I've posted this to prove that I just didn't make it up, I repeat whatI said in my last post that the critical sales figures are between now andChristmas.-----Subj: Re:"2 to 1" Quote Source 94-09-02 01:17:38 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online>> Now that I've posted this to prove that I just didn't make it up, I repeatwhat I said in my last post that the critical sales figures are between now andChristmas. << Yes, I remember reading that. However Tal was going on old 3DOfigures.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Atari Sues 3DO 94-09-02 03:18:37 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineI found this interesting little post on the 'net. Atari seriously tried to sue3DO for using the slogan "The most advanced gaming system in the universe." This post gives some details, and also expressed my opinion on the subjectbetter than I could! ;)....Subject: ATARI Sues 3DO:get a life From: bwright@netcom.com (Bruce Wright) Date:Fri, 2 Sep 1994 05:41:24 GMT Message-ID: <bwrightCvHMH1.M9D@netcom.com>So Atari sued 3DO and attempted to keep them from using the slogan "The mostadvanced gaming system in the universe." Saying that it was a lie andmisleading to consumers.It was thrown out of court and Atari was ordered to reimburse 3DO for the costsof defending such a stupid lawsuit.ATARI SHOULD DIE.Like our judicial system really needs this kind of clogging! I'm gonna sue themanytime someone at Atari says "The Jaguar is the coolest machine in the world." I'm gonna sue BMW for calling their cars "the ultimate driving machine". I'mgonna find a guy who doesn't like Sara Lee and sue the shit outta that company!Open letter to Atari:QUIT THIS BULLSHIT AND MAKE SOME FUCKKIN GAMESWhat did they think they would win from a stupid move like this (which has yearsof precident showing that they would lose)? Devotion and respect from the gamingcommunity? An image that Atari plays fair and competes with superior quality,not underhanded tactics?That settles it. I'm never buying a Jaguar. They're worse than Microsoft. I'mmorally opposed to buying anything from Atari.They are bad.-Bruce----------------------- Headers ----------------------- Newsgroups:rec.games.video.advocacy Path:search01.news.aol.com!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!uunet!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!bwrightFrom: bwright@netcom.com (Bruce Wright) Subject: ATARI Sues 3DO:get a lifeMessage-ID: <bwrightCvHMH1.M9D@netcom.com> Organization: NETCOM On-lineCommunication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 05:41:24 GMT Lines: 31-----Subj: Re:"2 to 1" Quote Source 94-09-02 12:30:16 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> : You ignorant Atari basher...with regard to American market share, theJaguar : has outsold the 3DO over 2 to 1 (and that is with littlehardly any :advertising or in store displays). : : Tal Funke-Bilu : Atari CorporationTal is an editor of Atari Explorer Online and joined Atari as an employee. <<<He is also misinformed...>>> Now that I've posted this to prove that I just didn't make it up, I repeatwhat I said in my last post that the critical sales figures are between now andChristmas. <<<Agreed...-----Subj: Continue on 94-09-02 18:18:29 EDT From: Hardman19 Posted on: America OnlineI hope both systems do well this Christmas. I would like nothing better than tosee the 3DO an Jaguar become the Nintendo and Sega of the future. Rather thanbash the systems I say buy them both.The 3DO has proven itself...WOTW, RR, and SW are all titles worthy of praiseabove and beyond most titles available for any system. With the new price andthe WAY it is selling the 3DO is probably the best purchase someone looking fora home system could buy.The Jaguar has great potential. With the pending release of AvP and Kasumi Ninjathe Jag should place itself as a system to watch and respect. Currently thehardware is awesome , and when the software catches up......you'll hear theroar..I praise both systems........-----Subj: Re:Continue on 94-09-02 19:21:47 EDT From: JBBJRPosted on: America OnlineHardiman says: >>I hope both systems do well this Christmas. I would likenothing better than to see the 3DO and Jaguar become the Nintendo and Sega ofthe future. Rather than bash the systems I say buy them both.Actually, though I am known for being a Jag supporter, I agree with your post. Ionly have been anti-3D0 because Tip and crew have been so anti-Atari andtechnologically snotty. Atari's been the underdog for a decade while putting outgreat, interesting, different computer and gaming products and in this Microsoftand Nintendo world, I'd love to see that diversity continue.-----Subj: Re:Atari Sues 3DO 94-09-03 00:18:48 EDT From: Nirwanda Posted on: America OnlineThat's a "colorful" source you've found there, Andrew.Nir-----Subj: Hmmm... 94-09-03 01:20:49 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Maybe thats why he`s not around.. :) Perhaps he saw all the stuff that wascoming like Guardian War, Road Rash (Im sorry but its on rails), Star Control II(sorry its a port) and WOTW and decided to fall back and regroup. :)" -DangardAceGuess again. :)"Or maybe he's moving his things into a college dorm. In fact, unless somebodyhas been forging e-mail (anyone?) he's DEFINATELY at college and UNABLE toconnect to AOL....Wait till the man has to leave AOL for a while and get him (bybuilding up TONS of nasty posts) while he's defenseless, eh?" - Nirwanda"I just got some email from Jason...he is back at school and doesn't have accessto AOL from there." - ACLAMI left for college about two weeks ago and didn't bring a computer with me. Forthe last couple of weeks or so, I haven't had access to AOL. I've been keepingup on the latest news in regard to the Jaguar and 3DO through Internet, though. I'd like to thank Nirwanda, ACLAM, KRRvision, ByteHed, and everybody else whohad some things to say in my defense while I was gone. I kind of expected toget pummeled behind my back as soon as I said I'd be gone for a while. :)"Actually hes a real trooper.. When he comes back I look forward to his commentsabout the new and lemon freshened 3DO outlook... I`m sure he`ll have plenty ofammo to work with." - DangardAceHere goes...Jason-----Subj: the 3DO 94-09-03 01:21:19 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"The 3DO has proven itself...WOTW, RR, and SW are all titles worthy of praiseabove and beyond most titles available for any system." - Hardman19Basically, four major things have happened with the 3DO since I left:1. The official price of the system dropped to $400. 2. AT&T dropped their plansin relation to the 3DO. 3. Road Rash was released. 4. Way of the Warrior wasreleased.The system price drop is good news. The 3DO is approaching the price range thatmost gamers would be willing to pay, but it's not quite there yet. I don'tthink there's ever been much doubt that the system price could drop this low($400), but it remains to be seen if it can drop much lower. If the 3DO getsdown to about $200-$300, system price should no longer be a serious problem. I'm impressed by how quickly the price of the system has dropped.The AT&T news is disappointing, but I don't think that it's a _serious_ setback,though. Disappointing news, but not earth-shattering.I haven't played Road Rash yet, but it looks to be a good game. It may be thebest console racing game ever, but, again, I haven't played it yet.Way of the Warrior is a disappointment and is truly one of the worst fightinggames I've ever played. Whether EGM reviewed an incomplete version or not,their review is accurate in relation to the final version. Comments on the gamefrom David Liu before its release were misleading and, in some cases, simplywrong. WOTW is an even bigger disappointment than JPI, since WOTW had far morepotential.Overall, the system price drop and the release of RR certainly have improved the3DO's standing. The news about AT&T and the fact that WOTW turned out to be soterrible hurt the system, though. I think that, basically, the 3DO has beenmoving forward and making progress, but slowly. This has been the case eversince early this year, when the first system price drop and the announcement ofa lot of new upcoming games pulled the system out of its slow start. Still,though, the 3DO has a long way to go. The system is progressing, but veryslowly. After all the hype, all of the games released, and all of the pricedrops, there should be more to show than just 200,000 systems sold worldwide. U.S. sales in particular seem to be quite poor. Overall, the system isconsistently improving, but by no means is 3DO on track to become the next Segaor Nintendo.Jason-----Subj: the Jaguar 94-09-03 01:21:43 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"The Jaguar has great potential. With the pending release of AvP and KasumiNinja the Jag should place itself as a system to watch and respect. Currentlythe hardware is awesome , and when the software catches up......you'll hear theroar.." - Hardman19The Jaguar has had a lot of potential from the start. As I've said before,though, you can only get so excited about what games you might be playing in thedistant future.While the 3DO has slowly made progress over the last few months, the Jaguarhasn't accomplished much. In fact, the system has been on hold since January. Atari deserves a lot of criticism for a lot of things right now, but, to anextent, that criticism has gone overboard. There's a difference betweenlegitimate criticism and bashing and, unfortunately, the vast majority of whatAtari's online critics have been saying in recent months is bashing, most ofwhich has had almost no basis in reality.There are around 100 games in development for the Jaguar. Since so many of thesystem's licensees didn't sign on until within the last few months, we won't seemost of those games for a while. It's easy to bash the Jaguar now, out ofignorance of what's really going on behind the scenes. I have yet to hearanybody put forth a solid argument as to why the Jaguar "has no future", though. All of the criticism revolves around how few games are out _now_. Argue thatwe can determine the Jaguar's future by looking at its past if you want, butthat's a flimsy argument. Equating "there aren't many Jaguar games out rightnow" with "the system has no future" just doesn't hold water.Both of these systems got off to a poor start, but the Jaguar is taking longerto pull out of it. With so much third party support and with so many games indevelopment, the Jaguar will eventually pull out of this slump, but it's hard tosay _when_ it will happen. I think that most of us expected it to have happenedby now and since it hasn't, there's a lot of disappointment. As disappointingas the Jaguar's performance has been so far, though, there's good reason tobelieve that the system will do well in the future. To assume that a systemwith around 100 games in development and so much third party support is alwaysgoing to get only one new game every couple of months is unreasonable. It'staking much longer than expected for the Jaguar to get a steady flow of games,but that doesn't translate into the system having no future.Jason-----Subj: < 100,000 = "system seller"? 94-09-03 01:22:39 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineThis "system-seller" issue has nearly been beaten to death over the last fewmonths. I'm not going to spend much time on this.Total Eclipse + Madden + The Horde + Shock Wave = 4 games that were said to beselling a lot of 3DOs.A recent press release stated that about 200,000 3DO units have been soldworldwide. Apparently, the majority of those have been sold outside of theU.S.Do the math. :)Do you really think it's reasonable to say that those four games are selling alot of systems when they and about 40-50 other games combined apparently haven'teven sold 100,000 systems in this country? I don't care how well SW sold incomparison to previous 3DO releases. If one copy of Madden sold and SW sold twocopies, that doesn't mean that SW sold well. It's the SNES and Genesis thathave set the standard for what "good sales" are and it's laughable to suggestthat a game is a "system-seller" or is selling well when it, along with about40-50 other games, doesn't even sell 100,000 systems. The numbers are in andthe 40-50+ 3DO games released so far have, _combined_, only sold 200,000 systemsworldwide. In this country, the number is probably below 100,000. Under100,000 units sold wouldn't even qualify _one_ game as a "system-seller", letalone 40-50 games combined. Walking into your local EB and seeing a couple ofpeople buy a 3DO along with Shock Wave is not proof positive that the 3DOequivalent of Sonic or SF2 has arrived. :)Jason-----Subj: Jaguar vs 3D0=duh? 94-09-03 02:56:31 EDT From: IANmccPosted on: America OnlineFighters are obviously the most popular games on any system at the moment. If3D0 delivers with SSF2 and SS it will definately sell a ton of systems. A lotof people look at an arcade conversion and go, "cool, it's almost just like thearcade!". If SSF2 lives up to whats being called "better than the arcade", Itwill definitely sell a lot of systems, becuse the game has name recognition. And if it surpasses expectations, machines will be selling like hotcakes! Ofcourse, the price chopping of 3DO will help too! When SNES and GENISIS firstcame out, the games were quite forgettable, and the technology was not pushed tothe limits. 3D0 hasn't even scratched the surface yet. There are more qualitygames out so far, than were availible for the other two systems the first yearof release.As for the Jaguar........I feel the same way about Atari as I did aboutCommodore (who just went bankrupt). The Amiga was a killer machine for it'stime, but poor marketing and empty promises smashed the sucker into the ground. It basically turned into a glorified Sega Genisis (same cpu too). Actually, theCEO for Commodore used to work for Atari and did the same thing for them in themid 80's with the 7800 and XL systems. If Atari delivers with some of the gamesthey're promising, Jaguar will sell!!! But I still believe it's too early totake sides. As for myself, had a Jaguar, sold it, bought a 3D0......Who knows,maybe I'll buy a Jaguar again....I also own a computer and still think the bestgames are created for that platform. If you've ever played Tie Fighter or evenMK for the PC, you know where it's at. Of course computers are a bit moreexpensive, but ya know. Doom sure kicks butt, and that's been out for over ayear now...Star Control II was also very good for the PC....But when wintercomes, I will take sides, so watch out, ROAR!!PS- By the way, WOTW is pretty decent, just didn't hit the high expectationlevels..When it's out in the arcades it will sell 3D0s-----Subj: Re:< 100,000 = "system seller"? 94-09-03 03:10:45 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineI know how much you must have missed me... Explain this... I live in NY and havecontacted 3 Babbage's and 4 EB's in my area each having a MINIMUM of 7 copies ofWOTW and NONE were available. They sold out. 3DO announced June/July were thebest sales months for the 3DO, yet you continue with your "under 100,000",domestically, banter. If nobody owns a 3DO, who's buying all the copies ofWOTW? I CAN'T FIND ONE! Maybe their buying it for the soundtrack... I didn'tattack you while you were gone...TK ----- Subj: Re:the 3DO 94-09-03 09:59:44 EDT From: PilBoyPosted on: America Online" the fact that WOTW turned out to be so terrible hurt the system, though. "---JasonNo, I don't agree, I recently bougt a 3DO, also own a jag and hope both do well. The opinion is split on WOTW, personally, I don't think it is a good game,although it is somewhat enjoyable, but plenty of people really like it, enoughso it surely will not hurt 3DO.PilBoy-----Subj: Re:< 100,000 = "system seller"? 94-09-03 11:21:12 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>I live in NY and have contacted 3 Babbage's and 4 EB's in my area each havinga MINIMUM of 7 copies of WOTW and NONE were available.<<<FYI - There is an EB in NYC on 33rd street (in A&S Plaza) that has a ton ofWOTWs in stock if you still haven't found a copy....-----Subj: Investment? 94-09-03 12:40:37 EDT From: JerEZPosted on: America Online>>4. As for the companies? Well look it up yourself... 3D)'s stock symbol is"THDO" and Ataris is "ATC"...I've been watching both, and there is no contest...3DO is definately the better investment.<<I wouldn't touch either of these stocks with a ten-foot pole. If 3DO doesn'thave a killer Christmas, it's all over, imho. 3DO is highly speculative. I'drecommend talking to a knowledgable broker before sinking too much into it(although a few bucks might make it fun to watch...). Has anybody seen EA'sstock lately? They are big big stakeholders in 3DO, and while their games stillperform well sales-wise, their stock is down big time. There are much betterinvestments in this area of technology, especially with producers of developmenttools like Macromedia and Wavefront. Just my 2 cents worth... ----- Subj: WOTW 94-09-03 15:27:38 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"By the way, WOTW is pretty decent, just didn't hit the high expectationlevels..When it's out in the arcades it will sell 3D0s" - IANmcc"Pretty decent"? What a glowing review! :)Fighting games have a lot of system selling potential, but that doesn't meanthat any fighting game will sell systems. WOTW is such a poor fighting game,that it's unlikely to sell many systems. The controls, jumping, hit detection,and so much else is implemented horribly. The game is sloppy and has athrown-together-at-the-last-minute look and feel to it. It's a piece of trashin comparison to SF2, SS, Darkstalkers, and other fighting games."The opinion is split on WOTW" - PilBoyI posted a complete review of WOTW in the WOTW folder. In it, I went intodetail about some of the many problems with the game. The poor controls, highjumping, corny voices, unreliable life meter, sloppy hit detection, and so manyother aspects of the game are just implemented terribly. I know that thetendancy is there among a lot of people (Prince99, for example) to praise nearlyanything that comes in a box with a "3DO" label on it, but praising a game thisawful is just going too far. System loyalty has to end somewhere. This gamejust doesn't have a leg to stand on against the competition within its owngenre. If anybody here would care to try to defend this game, I'm more thanready to shoot it down."although it is somewhat enjoyable" - PilBoyThat can be said about nearly _any_ game."but plenty of people really like it" - PilBoyOnce again, let's remember that online 3DO owners praising a game by no meanstranslates into that game being well-liked. You can't just go into a 3DO forum,read positive comments about a 3DO game, then assume that that means that thegame is well-liked by the entire gaming world. If anything, the mixed reviewsof WOTW among online 3DO owners tell us that the game isn't even well-likedamong the most diehard supporters of the system. If WOTW can't get consistentlypositive reviews online, it's chances of being accepted by the average gamer areslim to none.Jason-----Subj: TK3DOFORUM... 94-09-03 15:28:27 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Explain this... I live in NY and have contacted 3 Babbage's and 4 EB's in myarea each having a MINIMUM of 7 copies of WOTW and NONE were available." -TK3DOFORUMOkay, here's my analysis: there are at least seven stores in your area thathave sold at least seven copies of WOTW. :)What else is there to say? Once again, local examples are nearly worthless. Alot of online 3DO advocates claimed to "know" that Total Eclipse, Madden, TheHorde, Shock Wave, and other 3DO games were selling tons of systems. Their"proof" was that 1.) they liked the game themselves and 2.) it seemed to beselling well in some local stores. The official numbers are in now, though, andabout 200,000 3DOs have sold worldwide, with the majority of those believed tohave been sold outside of the U.S. If TE, Madden, Twisted, SW, and about 40-50other 3DO games combined didn't manage to sell even 100,000 systems in thiscountry, how do you figure that any one of those games has sold a lot ofsystems? ~100,000 units sold isn't enough to qualify _one_ game as a "systemseller", let alone 40-50 games combined. Neither of these systems yet has agame that can send sales through the roof. The difference is that Jaguar ownersadmit that, whereas 3DO owners try to make almost every other game released forthe system out to be the 3DO equivalent of Sonic or SF2."I know how much you must have missed me..." - TK3DOFORUMAw, come on, Tom. :) I honestly did miss everybody here. Well, maybe notPrince99...Just kidding! :)Jason----- Subj: WOTW IS GREAT 94-09-03 15:54:20 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineI knew Jason would come on here and bash WOTW... just for my 2 cents, as Iposted before, my opinon is that this game is incredible, and one of the bestfighting games out there. Tons of 3DO owners, on Prodigy, and on here, have saidthe same thing... others haven't..Poor controls??? Yeah right dude! The control is precise! I have no problemsjumping, doing ANY OF THE SPECIAL MOVES, at all! The hit detection system isperfect!!! What game are you playing dude!!?? The game is as challenging as anyfighting game gets, and the animation is ON PAR with any other digitizedfighter... if this game is as bad as you say it is (most likely just to startarguments and hype the Jag) how come countless 3DO owners say different?I have the feeling you're so used to playing SSF2, that ANYTHING different isunacceptable... if it is so bad, how come people have been playing and playingand playing and playing the game since it has come out? How come EGM is doing asecond review... how come Die Hard Gamefan is going to do a great review ofWOTW? How come writer Nick Rox of Gamefan says the game is great?The game, is not nearly the worst fighter. It is one of the best. To youropinion Jason, I and others just have 2 say it's bunk... goodluck at college...----- Subj: 3DO sells exceedingly well... 94-09-03 16:00:12 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineEmployees of such stores as Software Etc, Babbages, Electronic Boutique havestated that the 3DO has been selling like hotcakes... the proof is there, justtalk to store owners, or go to stores yourself... WOTW has sold out of mostlyevery store around here, and stores around the world, and new and better gamesare released on a weekly basis for 3DO:Games released in last few months were: Shock Wave Gridders Road Rash (Jasonsays, "I haven't played it yet." Yeah right) Way of the Warrior Mad Dog II(which is EXCELLENT!) Microcosm Soccer Kid (today) Slayer (September 9th) StarControl II (the BEST GAME EVER)What does the Jag have 2 show for these games? Nothing. On WOTW, my opinion isthat it is one of the best fighters ever. You may say I don't know fightinggames, but everyone who has played WOTW at my house has loved it. Come over toProdigy, the user base is larger and people are a lot more intelligent. Thereason, you, Jason do not come to Prodigy, is because you would never last.-----Subj: New Games... 94-09-03 16:01:14 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineOh, I forgot Tetsujin, Powers Kingdom (incredible RPG), Burning Soldier... a newGolf Game also... will Jag even release this many by Christmas?-----Subj: Hundreds of games: 3DO 94-09-03 16:24:26 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineYou all should check out Mike Delaney's list of 3DO titles... it's in the 3DOForum on Prodigy and contains over a hundred games to be released for the 3DO...listed is the companies name, release date, and number...Games for September are:Soccer Kid Microcosm Tetsujin- out in JP and hot! Powers Kingdom (Guardian Warin US)out in JP and hot! Waliae Country Club Golf Advanced Dungeons and DragonsSlayer Burning Soldier out in JP and hot! Mad Dog II: The Lost Gold--out andhot!!!!! Demolition Man Star Control II --HOT!There we go, and this was just off the top of my head... 10 games for 3DO thismonth... Jaguar doesn't even have 10 games in close to one year...Also, on WOTW, it is NOT one of the worst fighters of all time. (As Jason putsit) There ARE MANY who own it that believe it's one of the best... If it's sobad, Jason, why do so many people love it?The 3DO has sold over 200,000 machines worldwide, has a library of over 50software titles, has a new price of $399.95 and the system includes 4 CD's...Jurassic Park, Crash n' Burn, Total Eclipse, and a sampler CD... reports fromSoftware Etc. state that the 3DO is selling EXCEEDINGLY WELL, also many 3DOgames have made the top 10 list in sales from Babbages, and by the way thingslook, the 3DO is just destroying the Jaguar.The store displays for the 3DO are MUCH better than that of the Jag... I mean,how can you make people buy a $250 system with Trevor McFur and Dino Dudes onthe shelves... 3DO sold well at $499, and $449... It will sell well at $399...Who cares about AT&T... they didn't drop 3DO because it's not a fantasticplatform! They also DROPPED THEIR PLANS for Genesis's modem as well, not just3DO...The games are out, the price is down, and the verdict is in: The Jaguar, isfinished.-----Subj: Since Jason was gone: 94-09-03 16:27:39 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineSince Jason was gone: 1. 3DO dropped to $399 2. Way of the Warrior was released-i rate it a 9. 3. Road Rash was released- i rate it a 9 4. Microcosm wasreleased- i rate it a 5 5. Mad Dog II was released- i rate it an 8 or 9Jaguar: 1. nothing was released 2. nothing was released 3. nothing was released4. nothing was released 5. nothing was releasedAlso, 3DO has more than TEN games scheduled for Sept, including Soccer Kid,Tetsujin, Guardian War, Buring Soldier, Country Club Golf, Dungeons and Dragons,Star Control II...The Jaguar has: World Class Cricket.Jason has lost yet *ANOTHER Argument.P.S. WOTW is GREAT.-----Subj: WOTW DID NOT HURT THE 3DO! 94-09-03 16:31:11 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineWhere is your PROOF? There is none. It is bunk. Many people here on AOL,Prodigy, and GAMEFAN believe WOTW to be a superior fighting game. Just as yousay local examples don't count, here's another one for ya.JUST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT LIKE THE GAME DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT GOOD AND IT DOESNOT MEAN THAT THE GAME HURT THE SYSTEM!!!!Who do you think you are? Your personal opinons, as stated before, are bunk andEVERYBODY KNOWS IT.-----Subj: 3DO 94-09-03 16:34:35 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineYo Jason, if WOTW is so bad, why did people list it as one of their favorite 5games for the 3DO? You put down the music, sound effects, gameplay, graphics,you put down N.D., and everyone else, just because you don't like the game...you also said the graphics are not even up to par with mortal kombat!!! You mustbe blind!!! Things going on in the background?? Yeah, in Street Fighter thereare people riding bikes back and forth and people that look like 8 bitcharacters!Well, I believe WOTW is an exceptional fighting game, you do not... othersbelieve it is an exceptional fighting game, others do not... how can ANYBODY saythe other is wrong, and how can ANYBODY SAY WOTW hurt 3DO?Going to play: Prince Interactive-----Subj: Hardman 19/Jason... 94-09-03 16:40:41 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineHardman19 praised WOTW, but Jason immediately says it's the worst fighter he'sever played...Jason's opinion outweighs and is CORRECT, and Hardmans, Hanoi's, mine, andothers who believe WOTW is great don't count...If EGM would have gave WOTW 9's, Jason would give it 9's... he's a follower andon medication for his condition...Hey Jason, go play Road Rash and WOTW again and report back... oh, I forgot, youhave a date with Tempest. <BIG WIDE GRIN FOLLOWED BY A HUGE LAUGH AND THEN IPRAY TO GOD, THANKING HIM I'M NOT YOU! THANK GOD!>-----Subj: AT&T dropped Sega as well. 94-09-03 16:42:03 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineSega has a userbase of between 12 and 14 million... AT & T dropped them as well,not just 3DO.-----Subj: 3DO is not trying to Sega or Nin 94-09-03 16:46:54 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineIt is trying to become the #1 Game/Multimedia system... If it were to becomeanother Sega or Nintendo, we would have to buy a new system every 2-4 years...3DO has countless upgrades, Video CD, 64 bit Expansion, and new machines whichwill be fully compatible with all existed software... CDI has been out 4 threeyears, and have sold 300,000 machines... 3DO will be ahead after christmas...And by the way, for a BRAND NEW COMPANY, and all the LACKLUSTER SOFTWARE, as youput it, etc, 200,000 machines worldwide in under 11 months of availablity isEXCELLENT. Whatever 3DO does, you will always bash Jason... Always... with gameslike Shock Wave, RR, WOTW, Slayer, whatever... you will always, always, always,bash... The Jaguar, is dead.-----Subj: 200,000 Worldwide... 94-09-03 16:49:11 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineUS sales quite poor? Over 100,000 units in 11 months of availability is poor? Also, that 200,000 number is old... June/July... consistently improving... iagree...The Atari, is dead in the water. 7 games!!! 6 horrible games!!!!!3DO--over 50 software titles...-----Subj: Jaguar sucks. 94-09-03 16:52:57 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America Online3DO w/3 games + Sampler CD $399.95 Games available: WOTW, Road Rash, ShockWave, Madden, Twisted, Mad Dog II, Gamegun, Guardian War, Alone in the Dark, Outof this World, The Horde..Jaguar w/ 1 game + RF connector $249.95 + S Video or A/V 20.00 269.95Games available since October Trevor Mcfur Dino Dudes Tempest Wolf 3D BrutalSports Football...Which system is REALLY BETTER? <laugh>-----Subj: Prince99 94-09-03 17:00:07 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America OnlineHey Prince, can you try to cut down on the number of messages you post? Thesefolders can only hold 500 before they fill up, and it seems like a lot of yourposts are pretty repetitive...they could be easily summed up to one or twoposts...Thanks in advance...!-----Subj: Prince99... 94-09-03 19:52:50 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"if this game is as bad as you say it is (most likely just to start argumentsand hype the Jag) how come countless 3DO owners say different?" - Prince99First of all, criticizing WOTW does nothing to "hype the Jag". Whether or notWOTW is a good fighting game has nothing to do with the Jaguar."Countless 3DO owners" say that WOTW is good because "countless 3DO owners"_want_ WOTW to be good, regardless of reality."I have the feeling you're so used to playing SSF2, that ANYTHING different isunacceptable." - Prince99I like WH2J, SS, Darkstalkers, and other games outside of the SF2 series. Yes,WOTW is "different", but in all the wrong ways. Being different just for thesake of being different isn't necessarily good.Prince, the bottom line here is that you don't know much about fighting games. Not only that, but you'd praise Crescent Galaxy if it had a 3DO label on it. IfWOTW came out for the Jaguar, you'd be posting dozens of messages a day abouthow awful the character voices are, how choppy the animation is, howridiculously high the characters jump, how there's no way to know how muchstrength you have left, etc. You have yet to get into _specifics_ about whatsupposedly makes WOTW so great. You describe the controls and other aspects asbeing "perfect", "near perfect", etc., but you never go into details. Until youcan actually back up what you're saying with some solid arguments, don't evenbother defending the game."JUST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT LIKE THE GAME DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT GOOD AND IT DOESNOT MEAN THAT THE GAME HURT THE SYSTEM!!!!" - Prince99It's not JasonTE not liking the game that makes it bad. It's the high jumping,unreliable life meter, poor controls, poor hit detection, terrible charactervoices, choppy animation, and other flaws that make the game bad."but everyone who has played WOTW at my house has loved it." - Prince99You live alone?Jason-----Subj: Re:Prince99... 94-09-03 20:33:11 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineThat live alone thing was funny.The controls are perfect: I and others who have played can get ALL special movesto work the 1st time, and the fatalities are extremely easy to pull off.The life meter is not unreliable. The hit detection is not poor. I have no cluewhere you get the idea the 'life meter is poor."You saying countless 3DO owners want WOTW to be good, and that's the reasonpeople are saying it's good, is totally absurd. It's good because we want it tobe good?Not all the voices are bad... another thing, how can somebody help if theirvoice is satisfiable to you or not...I have no problems with control, the life meter, or hit detection system... someof the voices are silly and the game is hard... The animation is better than MKor MK2--in MK all you do is punch, kick, and do nothing as complex as WOTW...The characters in SF2 jump high as well...Jaguar advocates will pick apart WOTW because they want it to be bad. You,Jason, fit perfectly in this catagory.Many people here believe WOTW is a great fighter... such as myself, Hanoi, andHT Gaming... People over at the 3DO Forum believe the same...Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not a great game. I KNOW WOTWis good. How can u say people who like WOTW don't know what a real fighting gameis? Is SF2 the standard for fighting games? I hope not. Is MK2? That's just anextremely OVERRATED fighter. Now, back to one of my 50 3DO titles... go playTempest, lil' kid.-----Subj: Re:Prince99... 94-09-03 21:28:05 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America OnlineI was pretty disappointed with WOTW. In general, I'm not a big fighting gamefan, but I'll play MK or SF every once in a while.I just spent the last couple of hours with WOTW. I haven't mastered too manymoves, but I made it to the Abbot basically using Dragon's jumping split kick oneverybody...pretty easy to beat everyone this way except Crimson and ShakeyJake. Every once in a while, I'd accidently trigger a special move (thefireball, for one), but had a tough time recreating it. Basically, if I canmake it to the Abbot with no skill whatsoever, I can't imagine this is a verygood implementation of a fighting game.I don't think that WOTW will hurt 3DO in anyway, but I also don't think it willdo very well once SSFT2 and Samurai Shodown make it to the stores....-----Subj: Re:Atari Outsells 3D0 2 to 1 94-09-03 21:46:35 EDT From: HAWK423924 Posted on: America OnlineJBBJR That post on the Internet was a guy asking how he had heard in early DECJAN that the jag was outselling the 3DO 2 to 1! But was asking again how it wasdoing now!And anybody anywhere who sells video game consoles im sure will tellyou right now the 3DO IS MOPPING THE FLOOR WITH THE JAG! But that can changewhen they come out with the games!But until then the jag is in a sorry STATE!-----Subj: Jason's right on WOTW 94-09-03 21:53:59 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineSad to say it but after several days of play I find myself agreeing witheverything Jason has said about WOTW. The backgrounds really are very dull andthe chacter animation is very choppy and artifacty at the edges. Worse yet,most of the fatalities look like simple paint program manipulations of the flat2D digitized images. Beheadings, for example, are simply a 2D cut-out of thehead rotated. Any decent fighting game should render the fatalities in 3D on aworkstation using polygons & textures or other movie style special effects. Theway WOTW did it is really cheap and cheesy and shows how amateur this effortreally was.Worse yet, at least one of the characters is played by one of the gamesdesigners and many of the voice overs are also done by the design team (DavidLiu did the dragon). ND should really have hired professional actors as thevoices are horribly lame.All those little things that make a game really great are just missing fromWOTW. In the final analysis it does suck and will likely hurt the 3DO a bit asthis & JPI now make two big failures.On a more positive note nobody was expecting anything from Mad Dog McRee II yetit appears to be a nice title with all of I's problems solved.-----Subj: Re:Prince99... 94-09-03 22:08:29 EDT From: HAWK423924 Posted on: America OnlineI respect everybodys opinion on these boards but after reading 10 hour post buythis jason character! I have come to the conclusion he doesn't like 3dO nor willhe EVER! SAying WOTW is worst then JPI sais it all ! Your opinion is worth WormDung!I bet before you even play a 3dO game all you do is look for anythingnegative! And nevr even consider all the positives! You are very pesimistictowards the 3DO! Why dont you just sell your 3DO and stop wasting my money withyou 25 mile long post!-----Subj: Re:the 3DO (WOTW) 94-09-03 22:24:35 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 said:>>>> Way of the Warrior is a disappointment and is truly one of the worstfighting games I've ever played. Whether EGM reviewed an incomplete version ornot, their review is accurate in relation to the final version. Comments on thegame from David Liu before its release were misleading and, in some cases,simply wrong. WOTW is an even bigger disappointment than JPI, since WOTW hadfar more potential.<<<I must concur. The few rough edges harshly null and void this game in the longrun. I purchased this game excitedly expecting all that was promised by NaughtyDog, David Liu, and the various hype wagons. The animation is choppy andunexceptable. The speech clips are weak during combat, and they seem to havebeen read off of a card. The jumping seems to take place sans gravitational pulland is way too high. The collision detection is weak. The graphics seem almosttoo garish and harsh. The fighters themselves seem almost 'flat" and onedimensional. Their shading is very poor, and the lack of shadows is not good.Yes, the moves are easy to pull off, but the more I play this game, the more Iam disappointed with it. I have spent the last almost three days playing it forhours on end. I've performed various fatalities, and they are weak. The blood isweak. I don't feel the selected BGM fits in well with this game. I had given itan initial grade of a B-. I must now drop that grade to a weak D-. All I hope isthat SSF2T is not a disappointment like WOTW was for **ME**.-----Subj: Re:< 100,000 = "system seller"? 94-09-03 22:26:59 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>> Total Eclipse + Madden + The Horde + Shock Wave = 4 games that weresaid to be selling a lot of 3DOs.<<<<Well, Madden sold me on the 3DO. :) (Of course one person is a very weaksample). ;p-----Subj: Aclam... different difficulty 94-09-03 22:30:40 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineI serious doubt you got that far with one move... Anyway, that's why they havedifferent difficulty settings... 7 total... put it on HIGHEST ADVANTAGE COMPUTERand see where your butt gets... nowhere loser...-----Subj: Re:WOTW IS GREAT 94-09-03 22:40:06 EDT From: Nirwanda Posted on: America OnlinePrince99 writes: "The control is precise! I have no problems jumping, doing ANYOF THE SPECIAL MOVES, at all!"You have a warped view of "good" controls. So far, the only game whose controlshave been SO bad as to prevent access to special moves is StreetFighter 1. Itwould be completely unacceptable for a modern game's special moves to beproblematic. (hmm grammar? oh well...)Nir-----Subj: Re:Jaguar vs 3D0=duh? 94-09-03 22:40:08 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineIANmcc said:>>>Fighters are obviously the most popular games on any system at the moment. If 3D0 delivers with SSF2 and SS it will definately sell a ton of systems.<<<<I am eagerly awaiting SSF2T, but I feel as if SF2 popularity has dieddrastically since two years ago when SF2 was all the rave and sold millions ofSNES units. No other game has held the fighting market's attention like SF2except for MK2. I do not think SSF2T/3DO or even SS/3DO will have the impactlike SF2 for the SNES.>>>> Of course, the price chopping of 3DO will help too! When SNES and GENISISfirst came out, the games were quite forgettable, and the technology was notpushed to the limits. <<<<I disagree. When the SNES came out with Super Mario World (Along with a hugemedia blitz), Nintendo was still riding high off of their NES. Super MarioBrother's 3 is still the biggest selling video game of all time. I don't knowabout your area of living, but Altered Beast was very popular for the Genesis,and the games that came out for the Genesis back around 1990 were radicallybetter than anything gamers had seen. ThunderForce III for the Genesis (1990) isstill considered the greatest shooter of all time. The price of the Genesis wasalso $189.95 and the SNES was $199.95 when introduced. A lot cheaper than$399.95.>>>3D0 hasn't even scratched the surface yet. There are more quality games outso far, than were availible for the other two systems the first year ofrelease.<<<<Quality is in the eye of the beholder <g>, but I would say that the gamesmatched their correlative technological levels of that time. I definitely foundSuper Mario World more fun to play than Crash N Burn.>>>>As for the Jaguar........I feel the same way about Atari as I did aboutCommodore (who just went bankrupt). The Amiga was a killer machine for it'stime, but poor marketing and empty promises smashed the sucker into theground.<<<<Commodore tried to market the Amiga as a business computer. That was theirundoing. :) The PC had already infiltrated the market.>>> It basically turned into a glorified Sega Genisis (same cpu <<<<The Amiga was an excellent game playing machine, but it also had its nichemarket in Desktop TV.>>>>too). Actually, the CEO for Commodore used to work for Atari and did thesame thing for them in the mid 80's with the 7800 and XL systems.<<<<Tramiel used to work for Commodore and left and purchased the home computerdivision of Atari from Warner Bros.>>>> If Atari delivers with some of the games they're promising, Jaguar willsell!!! But I still believe it's too early to take sides. <<<<I agree. Instead of taking sides, I just purchased both.>>>>As for myself, had a Jaguar, sold it, bought a 3D0......Who knows, maybeI'll buy a Jaguar again....I also own a computer and still think the best gamesare created for that platform. <<<<I understand you selling your Jaguar. The lack of games is very irritating. Ithink computers are great for simulations, and indepth non arcade RPGs. For onscreen sprites and parallax scrolling in an exceptable manner, I find them verylacking.>>>> By the way, WOTW is pretty decent, just didn't hit the high expectationlevels..When it's out in the arcades it will sell 3D0s<<<<I found WOTW very disappointing. IMHO, EGM was more on the mark than off.-----Subj: Re:Jaguar vs 3D0=duh? 94-09-03 22:51:05 EDT From: Nirwanda Posted on: America OnlineByteHed writes:"ThunderForce III for the Genesis (1990) is still considered the greatestshooter of all time."Hey! Don't forget Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder for Duo! Just becausethe system is outtathere, people forget about the thunder series. :-(Nir-----Subj: Re:WOTW IS GREAT 94-09-03 22:53:32 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlinePrince99 said:>>>>I knew Jason would come on here and bash WOTW... just for my 2 cents, as Iposted before, my opinon is that this game is incredible, and one of the bestfighting games out there. Tons of 3DO owners, on Prodigy, and on here, have saidthe same thing... others haven't.. <<<<Well, I am one in the negative column on this one. I call them as I see them,and WotW is more hype than deliverence.>>>>Poor controls??? Yeah right dude! The control is precise! I have no problemsjumping, doing ANY OF THE SPECIAL MOVES, at all! The hit detection system isperfect!!! What game are you playing dude!!??<<<<I agree with you here. The controls are very responsive, and the moves arerather easy to get out. As for the hit detection, you can't really seedefinitive blows landing, and a lot of times when I thought blows were clearlyconnecting, they weren't. I would have prefered better sounds of the hits todifferentiate between them and other attacks.>>> The game is as challenging as any fighting game gets, and the animation isON PAR with any other digitized fighter... if this <<<<Challenging, yes, but I absolutely disagree about the digitized fighterstatement. If the animation is so good, why does MK2 seem a lot clearer,crisper, and fluid to my naked eye than ANY of the animations I have seen inWotW?>>>game is as bad as you say it is (most likely just to start arguments and hypethe Jag) how come countless 3DO owners say different?<<<Yes, as an owner of a 3DO, Jason's sole mission in life is to start countlesswars with 3DO owners. :p>>>I have the feeling you're so used to playing SSF2, that ANYTHING different isunacceptable... if it is so bad, how come people have been playing and playingand playing and playing the game since it has come out?<<<<I've played SF2, MK/MK2, SS, Primal Rage and other fighter games. I am able toadapt to new play mechanics in games fairly easy. As I said, the moves andexecuting them is not the problem. It is all the other problems I listed.>>>> How come EGM is doing a second review... how come Die Hard Gamefan is goingto do a great review of WOTW? How come writer Nick Rox of Gamefan says the gameis great? <<<<If EGM has any gumption, they will stand by most of their review. This game isnot that good. As for DHGF, we will see. If I remember, more than one reviewerreviews the game.>>>The game, is not nearly the worst fighter. It is one of the best. To youropinion Jason, I and others just have 2 say it's bunk...<<<<Bunk that I actually agree with, and fighting games are my favorite type ofgaming right behind RPGs. This game is not good.-----Subj: Re:WOTW DID NOT HURT THE 3DO! 94-09-03 22:57:25 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>>Who do you think you are? Your personal opinons, as stated before, are bunkand EVERYBODY KNOWS IT.<<<<But your opinion is valid?? Jason disagrees with your viewpoint, and as aresult, his opinion is reduced to the status of "bunk." That is a very limitedmentality. I do not always agree with what Jason says, but I definitely respecthis opinion and do not pass personal judgement on his views of the industry andthe 3DO.-----Subj: Re:Jason's right on WOTW 94-09-03 23:09:25 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineClayCip said:>>>>Sad to say it but after several days of play I find myself agreeing witheverything Jason has said about WOTW.<<<<As do I. I am not impressed with this title at all, and I think EGM was more ontarget than off.>>>>The backgrounds really are very dull and the chacter animation is verychoppy and artifacty at the edges. Worse yet, most of the fatalities look likesimple paint program manipulations of the flat 2D digitized images.<<<<Absolutely. As I said in a previous message, the images seem very onedimensional, and the shading is very weak. The sense of "depth" is severelymissing. The backgrounds are very garish and dull, and they do not complementthe game very well at all.>>>> Any decent fighting game should render the fatalities in 3D on aworkstation using polygons & textures or other movie style special effects. Theway WOTW did it is really cheap and cheesy and shows how amateur this effortreally was.<<<<Absolutely agreed again. The polish was definitely missing from this title. Thesmall areas of polish in SF2, MK2, SS and even the new Primal Rage definitelyset them apart from this amateur work by Naughty Dog.>>>>Worse yet, at least one of the characters is played by one of the gamesdesigners and many of the voice overs are also done by the design team (DavidLiu did the dragon). ND should really have hired professional actors as thevoices are horribly lame.<<<<Absolutely. The voices when executing moves are very stale and soap opera"ish."Crimson Glory has very weak voice overs, and she seems to be a cut out paperfigure transposed over a flat background that does not radiate depth.>>>>All those little things that make a game really great are just missing fromWOTW. In the final analysis it does suck and will likely hurt the 3DO a bit asthis & JPI now make two big failures.<<<<I don't think it will hurt the 3DO. I also didn't think JPI really hurt the 3DO.I do agree both were huge flops, and they had more hype than deliverence. Thegame is simply not good. All I can hope is that SSF2T is a better effort. :(Your words are exactly how I feel too about this title.-----Subj: Re:Prince99... 94-09-03 23:13:26 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineHAWK said:>>>>I respect everybodys opinion on these boards but after reading 10 hour postbuy this jason character! I have come to the conclusion he doesn't like 3dO norwill he EVER! SAying WOTW is worst then JPI sais it all ! Your opinion is worthWorm Dung!I bet before you even play a 3dO game all you do is look for anythingnegative! And nevr even consider all the positives! You are very pesimistictowards the 3DO! Why dont you just sell your 3DO and stop wasting my money withyou 25 mile long post!<<<<I have debated with Jason several times over various issues. One thing hisopinion is, is always informed and honest. I agree with his review of WotW. Itis poor. His posts are always well constructed and presented in a logicalfashion. I wouldn't go so far as to say WotW is as bad as JPI, but it is veryclose. :) Saying Jason's opinion isn't worth "Worm Dung" is uncalled for andvery crude.-----Subj: Re:WOTW IS GREAT 94-09-03 23:18:00 EDT From: ChotusPosted on: America OnlineI'm afraid I have to agree with Jason on this one.....WOTW really is a POORattempt at a fighting game. I was at LEAST expecting something comparable towhat's available on the SNES, but what I got is a realdisappointment............ChotusP.S. Fortunately I was able to get Electronics Boutique to take mineback..........WHEW!!!!!!.. c ----- Subj: Re:Jaguar vs 3D0=duh? 94-09-03 23:18:36 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineByteHed writes:"ThunderForce III for the Genesis (1990) is still considered the greatestshooter of all time."And Nirwanda responded:>>>>Hey! Don't forget Gate of Thunder and Lords of Thunder for Duo! Justbecause the system is outtathere, people forget about the thunder series. :-(<<<<That was an error on my part in my word usage. What I had meant to say was thegreatest shooter of all time on the *Genesis*. Please except my apologies on theimplied oversight. :)-----Subj: Re:WOTW IS GREAT 94-09-03 23:21:53 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>>P.S. Fortunately I was able to get Electronics Boutique to take mineback..........WHEW!!!!!!..<<<EB has a ten day return policy on their games. A few more days of this dismalgaming, and my copy will be going back as well. This game is simply poor.-----Subj: Brutal People 94-09-03 23:31:38 EDT From: ChotusPosted on: America OnlineThis has to be one of the most "Brutal" message bases I have ever seen, so manyof you talk about these systems as if they were you children or your mother. Does anyone besides myself out there own both the 3DO and the Jaguar? I boughtand took back WOTW as I thought it was a POOR game. But I still like the 3DOand I like the Jaguar. I think they both need some help with quality titles,and I believe there is room enough for them both in the market rightnow........remember people these are only games.......so let's have fun withwhat we've got..........Chotus-----Subj: Re:Brutal People 94-09-03 23:43:16 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineChotus said:>>>>This has to be one of the most "Brutal" message bases I have ever seen, somany of you talk about these systems as if they were you children or yourmother. Does anyone besides myself out there own both the 3DO and the Jaguar?<<<<I own both a 3DO and a Jaguar.>>>> I bought and took back WOTW as I thought it was a POOR game. But I stilllike the 3DO and I like the Jaguar. I think they both need some help withquality titles, and I believe there is room enough for them both in the marketright now........remember people these are only games.......so let's have funwith what we've got.<<<<I absolutely agree. I, too, think there is room for both, and in no way do Ifeel one platform has to absolutely decimate the other. I also feel as if WotWwas a poor game. I can name numerous 3DO titles I personally found poor. In thesame vein, the same can be said for Jaguar titles.-----Subj: Jaguar Fans 94-09-04 00:59:36 EDT From: Python94 Posted on: America OnlineI have two words for Jaguar Fans: Electronic Arts!Fifa (on the Way) NFL 95(on the Way) Madden 95( on the Way) Tony Larussa 95 ( onthe Way)what else do I have to say But EA!-----Subj: Way of the Warrior survey 94-09-04 01:28:29 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineGrabbed from the 'net......Ok 3DO'rs... I have compiled the survey of Way Of The Warrior... Thanks to all who participated... There were 20 voters in all who mailed me.. Ok, heres the results... 1) Do you think Way Of The Warrior Needs More (and BETTER) blood/gore ? 80% YES/ 20% NO2) Would you prefer better animation, or do you like having more moves ? 70%Better Animation / 30% Like Having More Moves 3) Do you think the game should have (and needs) a controller config ? 85% YES /15% NO 4) Do you like the music in way of the warrior ? 70% YES / 30% NO (Most peoplethat voted yes stated the music fit perfect!) a 5) Do you like the sound effects& voices, or do you think they are chessy ? 35% Like The Voice's And SoundEffects / 65% Did Not Like Them 6) Do you think the engine is to hard (ie Pulling off moves, ect..) 65% Think So/ 35% Do Not Well, Thanx again for everyone that was involved... That seems to be thegeneralview on WOTW.. These are just the average 3do user from this newsgroupthat voted. Looks like ND should have had David Liu run a survey similar to this or so..-/- PsYcOtRoN -/- PS: To whoever said the more they play WOTW the less they like it.. Well Iagreewith you.. The more I play the more I hate it to..PSS: No Flames, This was a survey conducted on the newsgroup...-----Subj: unit sales 94-09-04 01:40:46 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"And anybody anywhere who sells video game consoles im sure will tell you rightnow the 3DO IS MOPPING THE FLOOR WITH THE JAG!" - HAWK423924The latest official numbers released indicate that both Atari and 3DO have solda little under 100,000 units in the U.S. By no means is the 3DO "mopping thefloor with the Jag" in terms of sales.Considering that the 3DO has much wider availability, close to ten times as manygames, and has received far more hype, the 3DO _should_ be "mopping the floorwith the Jag", but it isn't. I have no doubt that the Jaguar will easilyoutsell the 3DO once the games start coming out on a regular basis. Atari hasmanaged to sell about as many Jaguars in this country as Panasonic has sold 3DOunits in this country with less availability, less hype, and only around a tenthas many titles. A lot of that is due to the lower system price.If Brutal Sports Football, Wolfenstein 3D, and the like are enough to keepJaguar sales in the same league as 3DO sales, imagine what games like AVP andDOOM could do. The idea that the 3DO is vastly outselling the Jaguar is simplya myth created online. Several online 3DO owners post about how the 3DO isoutselling the Jaguar a billion to one at their local EB, how there are linesthree miles long at their local Babbage's to get a copy of Shock Wave, etc. People who read the online discussion boards come away with an impression thatgames like Madden, Total Eclipse, Shock Wave, etc. are selling like hotcakes,that the 3DO's future is guaranteed, and that the Jaguar is about to die becauseit can't keep up with the 3DO. Then, when Atari and 3DO announce officialnumbers, showing that both systems have sold in the same range here, peopleignore it!!! It's like talking to a brick wall. The fact is that despitehaving wider availability, more hype, and about ten times as many games, the 3DOis selling in the same league as the Jaguar. It isn't me saying that, it'sAtari and 3DO saying it _in their own press releases_! *SIGH*. This isprecisely what I mean about these asinine local examples being so misleading. Prince99 is foaming at the mouth, thinking that the 3DO is vastly outselling theJaguar, because he's read all of these local examples that have been postedonline. How many more times does it have to be proven that local examples don'tmean squat? Official numbers have been announced and neither system is "moppingthe floor" with the other.Jason-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-04 02:12:05 EDT From: HAWK423924 Posted on: America OnlineLatest numbers? Where did you get this info on the latest numbers sold!I heardabout the 3DO #'s but nothing from atari?-----Subj: BTW 94-09-04 02:34:06 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineIn a recent issue of Edge magazine, in an interview with Crystal Dynamics (orsome other 3DO licensee), the rep from the company came right out and said that3DO sales have been poor in the U.S. If somebody out there has that quote,please post it. These local examples have gotten out of hand and when peoplestart spewing garbage about the 3DO supposedly "mopping the floor with the Jag",I want to correct it. Not only has 3DO said in a recent press release that 3DOsales are only at 200,000 worldwide (less than 100,000 of those in the U.S.,supposedly), but a rep from a 3DO licensee recently came right out and told Edgemagazine, in an interview, that U.S. 3DO sales have been poor. Still, though,people like TK3DOFORUM and Prince99 will swear that the system must be sellingbetter than that, because of the local examples they've heard and because _they_think that people should be buying the system. Wake up, guys. The localexamples don't prove a thing as far as overall nationwide sales are concerned. Both systems have sold close to the 100,000 range in the U.S.Jason-----Subj: HAWK423924... 94-09-04 02:34:38 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"I have come to the conclusion he [Jason] doesn't like 3dO nor will he EVER!" -HAWK423924You're mistaken. I own a 3DO and I like it."SAying WOTW is worst then JPI sais it all !" - HAWK423924I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to what I _actually say_ if you're going torespond to me. I never said that WOTW is worse than JPI. I only compared thetwo games in terms of _potential and expectations_. WOTW is _more of adisappointment_ than JPI, but that doesn't necessarily translate into WOTW beinga worse game. In fact, since fighting games are my favorite genre, I'd probablyprefer WOTW to JPI. I've never played JPI, though."You are very pesimistic towards the 3DO!" - HAWK423924ACLAM and ByteHed can both attest to the fact that I've been praising the 3DO inthe 32X folder for _months_. Nirwanda and anybody else who reads the BestFighting Game folder can attest to the fact that I've had a lot of positivethings to say about the 3DO in that folder. I've had a lot of positive thingsto say about CNB, AITD, Guardian War, SS, SSF2T, RR, and other 3DO games aswell. I could go on, but, clearly, you've mischaracterized me."Why dont you...stop wasting my money with you 25 mile long post!" - HAWK423924Frankly, because you don't pay my AOL bills and, also, you won't stop wasting_my_ time with your insulting, poorly thought out posts.Jason-----Subj: ByteHed... 94-09-04 02:35:24 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Instead of taking sides, I just purchased both." - ByteHedI would recommend to anybody that they buy both of these systems, not just one. I honestly do think that the Jaguar will come out ahead in the long run, though,and that's why I argue the "Jaguar side" of this debate. The majority of what Ipost here is in defense of the Jaguar, not in criticism of the 3DO, anyway."If EGM has any gumption, they will stand by most of their review." - ByteHedI agree. They should apologize for having reviewed an incomplete version of thegame, but they should also state that they have no choice but to give the gamethe same ratings, since it apparently hasn't changed much since the version theyreviewed."No other game has held the fighting market's attention like SF2 except forMK2." - ByteHedUnfortunately, it's unlikely that any fighting game will ever match what theoriginal SF2 accomplished. It was the game that started it all and no otherfighting game will ever be able to make that claim. Fighting games have beenimproving, but they'll never be as original as SF2 was or create as muchexcitement as SF2 did. It's a one-time only sort of thing, much like a lot ofthe classic games that came out in the early 80s. Super SF2 Turbo is a higherquality game than the first SF2, but it sure isn't as original or exciting asthe first SF2 was for its day.Jason-----Subj: More WAY... 94-09-04 06:14:48 EDT From: GAMER7Posted on: America OnlineSince the 3DO WOTW folder is full I'll post a view here for now. WOTW remindsme of a movie with a great story & acting but poor camera work & lighting. Ifyou look past the surface you find a very entertaining game that actually pushesthe genre. Most people however, will probably not excuse the obviously poor # offrames per move that make the characters seem so oddly choppy & awkward in theirmovements. Things like animation in a game are taken for granted by most gamersand only really noticed if they are exceptionally good or obviously bad. Way isunfortunately the latter. Sound is also a mixed bag. The amount of voicesamples is copious & welcome, at the same time the voices are also low volume attimes & very cheesy or odd. Is this game really meant to be a spoof or aserious fighter?? Of more importance to me is the actual fighting sounds of thegame. I challenge anyone to go play MKII in the arcade, listen to the sounds ofblows, uppercuts, screams etc & tell me that WOTW is close to that. I think the2 young men @ ND did an amazing job considering the lack of production staff &lack of previous experience programming fighting games they had. I programmyself (business) & I can appreciate the tremendous effort it must have taken. I think the project would have been better served however if they had gottensome experienced help to smooth out the rough edges. For example SNK hired awaysome of Capcoms original Street fighter programmers to bolster their gamedevelpment and the difference was evident immediately. I plan to keep WAYbecause it is entertaining & heavy on content (magics, moves etc.). Thereshould also be tons of secrets revealed over the next few months that willenhance the value of the game.....Gamer7/Dahlsim ----- Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-04 09:46:39 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Considering that the 3DO has much wider availability, close to ten times asmany games, and has received far more hype, the 3DO _should_ be "mopping thefloor with the Jag", but it isn't.<<<It depends on how you measure it. From a unit sales perspective, you areright...3DO hasn't totally blown Jag out of the water. It has sold more, butnot a lot more. However, in terms of revenue, 3DO has definitely blown the Jagout of the water. Since it is twice the price, more than twice the money hasbeen spent on 3DO than Jag. I suspect that if the prices were more similar, youwould see that unit sale blowout....-----Subj: Re:BTW 94-09-04 09:51:37 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Not only has 3DO said in a recent press release that 3DO sales are only at200,000 worldwide (less than 100,000 of those in the U.S., supposedly), but arep from a 3DO licensee recently came right out and told Edge magazine, in aninterview, that U.S. 3DO sales have been poor.<<<<You must remember that 3DO's press release announced their ESTIMATE ofPanasonic's unit sales. It is in both companies' interest that 3DO lowball thisnumber until real numbers can be released by Panasonic. If the actual number tobe reported by Panasonic are lower than what 3DO has said, both companies willbe negatively affected (stock-wise). If in Panasonic's next financial reportthey announce a number bigger than what 3DO's estimate was, both companies willbenefit tremendously...this is not to say that 3DO has definitely sold a lotmore than 200,000...it just says that the number may not be precise and that itit more likely to be higher than lower.-----Subj: Re: Acclam 94-09-04 11:59:26 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineAgree that 200k is not reliable. The following is a new press release on theprice cut from Matsushita. Note very carefully that they state clearly andunambiguously that they are not releasing unit sales figures. Also they statevery clearly that the price cut is due to a recent surge in unit sales. This isclear and indisputable evidence from the manufacturer that the recent games havecontributed to stronger unit sales. Also recall in 3DO's announcement theyindicated that the last month had been the best ever for 3DO - another clearindication that Road Rash and Shock Wave are moving units.-----------The Real 3DO Multiplayer works with games and other multimedia titles on CD-ROMdisks. 3DO launched the device last year. Its overall sales have beenunspectacular, leading to a loss of $16.1 million on revenues of $4.9 millionfor 3DO in the fiscal first quarter ended June 30. However, Pritchard toldNewsbytes that Matsushita has seen interest growing in recent months, "as thenumber of software titles has increased."Pritchard would not reveal specific sales figures, saying Matsushita does notwant its competitors to have that information.-----Subj: ACLAM... 94-09-04 12:08:05 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"It has sold more, but not a lot more." - ACLAMWe're talking about U.S. sales here, since the U.S. is where the two systems arein competition. I think they're both available in Europe now as well, but onlyin small quantities...and I really don't have any numbers on how well eachsystem has sold there. I believe that the latest number from Atari was 70,000units sold and I think that that number was announced in June. 3DO's latestworldwide number is 200,000 and the majority of those are said to have been soldoutside of the U.S. If we know that Atari had sold ~70,000 units as of aboutthree months ago and we know that 3DO has sold less than 100,000 so far, how areyou figuring that 3DO has sold more? You're assuming that the 3DO has a smalladvantage which it doesn't necessarily have."However, in terms of revenue, 3DO has definitely blown the Jag out of thewater." - ACLAMI really don't know what all is involved with either system as far as costs areconcerned, so I don't know if you're right or if you're just speculating. Inany case, though, if people like Prince99 and HAWK423924 were saying that the3DO was "mopping the floor with the Jaguar" in terms of revenue, then I wouldhave responded differently. What they and others have actually been saying,though, is that far more 3DO units have been sold. That's just not the case,though. I really do think that all of these local examples that have beenposted online and the mentality that "I like Shock Wave, therefore I'm sure thathundreds of thousands of other people are buying the game too" have distortedthe issue of how well each system is actually selling. We _know_ that bothsystems have sold in the same range here, but people like Prince99 andHAWK423924 come away with the impression that the 3DO is selling far better thanthe Jaguar and that the Jaguar is about to die, just because it can't keep upwith the 3DO. The local examples have done more harm than good.Despite the 3DO's considerable advantages, these systems have both sold in the~100,000 range."I suspect that if the prices were more similar, you would see that unit saleblowout." - ACLAMAnd I suspect that if the Jaguar had even half as many games out for it,anywhere close to the wide availability of the 3DO, and half as much hype aswhat the 3DO has received, it would be blowing the 3DO out of the water in termsof sales. Yes, the Jaguar has a price advantage, but to "early adopters" (wholikely make up most of the people buying either of these systems right now),system price isn't an issue. Quantity of games, quality of games, and thesystem's future outlook are usually what matter most to those people.Jason----- Subj: Re:WOTW 94-09-04 13:45:05 EDT From: PilBoyPosted on: America Online" If WOTW can't get consistently positive reviews online, it's chances of beingaccepted by the average gamer are slim to none.Jason "I agree with almost everything you have to say about WOTW, I just don't think itwill "hurt" the system as you previously stated.PilBoy-----Subj: Re:WOTW 94-09-04 14:20:58 EDT From: TempeJim Posted on: America Online>>I agree with almost everything you have to say about WOTW, I just don't thinkit will "hurt" the system as you previously stated.PilBoy<<Right, WOTW might not be as good as SFII or MK but what game has ever been? KNwill be just as bad as WOTW. I don't see anyone making a good fighter afterwhat SFII has done. But the Jaguar still doesn't have games. I almost bought aJaguar the other day, but after playing W3D on the store-setup it wasn'timpressed. If Atari gives me AvP or Brett Hull Hockey I will buy one. But notfor the wrong reasons. With my 3DO I have Road Rash and Madden. With theJaguar I would have T2K and W3D. And the 3DO will only get better. Twowords......FIFA Soccer!!!!Tempe Jim-----Subj: Who cares 94-09-04 14:48:12 EDT From: How2Flirt Posted on: America OnlineIt's easy to compare 3Do to jaguar and have 3Do win when they have the softwareout now .. whenever atari and their 3rd party support releases games we can seewhat is the better system .. right now 3Do is killing Jag but who knows thisfall .. I own both so and still play Ibm games more ... I get bored quickly andwhile Road rash and WoTW are fantastic I find myself playing Xcom more.How2-----Subj: Ah, Intelligent people... 94-09-04 16:41:15 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineThis folder is a trip... hearing the same 4 people bash WoTW and a collegestudent blabber on ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT about how bad WoTW is and about 3DO/Jagsales figures just blows my mind...This means were dealing with 1 of many things here: 1. The boy has NOTHING,NOTHING, NOTHING to do but stay on AOL all day. 2. The boy is so insecure abouthis life because he has NOTHING to do but argue. 3. He has no life...I mean, reading these posts by 5 people saying how bad WoTW is and stuff likethat, is ridiculous... Jason is ridiculous and spends all his mom's money onthis service. We all heard his arguments about all the great games for 3DO, and3DO/Jag situation, even though he has NOTHING to do with the industrywhatsoever.Many people love WoTW, but others don't. That survey thing about WoTW wasanother trip, because you could improve any game... People in the 3DO Forum andothers here on AOL and CServe love the game... who's to say their wrong? What,because the all important and mighty college student says so?I think it was all summed up the best by the guy who said he returned it in aday or two... it's obvious no attempt was made at the magic moves, specialmoves, or anything... Jason, and Nirwanda, and others, are all unskilled,followers. What else is Jason gonna say after his chum Nirwanda and him talkbefore WoTW is released and Nirwanda tells him how bad WoTW is? HT Gaming isgiving it an 8, and right away Jason argues with HT Gaming about how it's not an8! Unbelievable!Jason says, "I know fighting games." Then he tries to explain HT Gaming likingWoTW by saying, "well, you don't know fighting games like I do."What a trip! Have fun you guys!-----Subj: Re:BTW 94-09-04 18:14:33 EDT From: HAWK423924 Posted on: America OnlineOhh so now your taking facts from a video games magazine!? The only quote i everread from edge about poor sales in the us i think was from issue 8 or 7 thatslike 6 months ago!Plus talk about facts i takes people opinions that haveactually seen 3do machines being sold in higher quantities! Then from some 3dolicensee rep who has no idea how many have sold in AMERICA ONLY PANASONIC KNOWSTHAT!!!!-----Subj: Re:HAWK423924... 94-09-04 18:24:28 EDT From: HAWK423924 Posted on: America Online"I own a 3DO and i like it" Really what do you like about it and what games doyou like for it!? "WOTW is more of a disappintment than JPI" How can you say this after youadmitted you haven't even played JPI!Also how can have a lot of positive thingsto say about SSF2T Its not even out yet!Talk with facts before you make yourcomments and opinions!Hey at least Your response was short and sweet to the point! ; )-----Subj: Tempe Jim... 94-09-04 19:01:02 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Right, WOTW might not be as good as SFII or MK but what game has ever been?" -Tempe JimA lot of games have been better than MK and I think that SS is better than SF2. Darkstalkers is close to SF2 quality.I agree that fighting games aren't as original and exciting as they used to be,but that can be said of any genre after it's been around for a while. Gameslike GEX, Dynamite Headdy, Rayman, etc. are unlikely to capture the originalityand excitement of the first Super Mario Bros., even though they'll likely bebetter than the first SMB. It's unlikely that DOOM 2 or AVP will capture theoriginality or excitement of the original DOOM, even though they may be betterthan the original DOOM. By no means is that a sign that the genre is about todie, though. It's something that happens with every genre. Fighting games arehere to stay. They just won't always be the most popular genre, like they areright now."KN will be just as bad as WOTW." - Tempe JimI doubt it. We'll see, though. It's certainly too early to make such aprediction with any certainty.Jason-----Subj: Prince99... 94-09-04 19:02:01 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"The boy has NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do but stay on AOL all day." -Prince99You've called me "freak", "fool", "loser", "crud", etc. You put up a lot ofposts criticizing _me_ for putting up a lot of posts, as though me posting a lotis an unforgivable sin and you posting a dozen asinine, insulting, poorlythought out posts a day is perfectly fine. You constantly misrepresent what Isay and you even _make up_ things that I've never said and put them in quotes,as though you're directly quoting me. Recently, you keep saying that I've beengiving Road Rash negative reviews, even though I haven't even reviewed the gameyet, because I haven't _played_ it yet! You bash almost anything Jaguar-relatedand you praise almost anything 3DO-related, regardless of reality. You need tostart _thinking_ about what you're saying before posting it, Prince. You can'tkeep misquoting, misrepresenting, name-calling, exaggerating, and flat out lyingand expect to have any credibility.Jason-----Subj: Re:ACLAM... 94-09-04 19:31:43 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>I really don't know what all is involved with either system as far as costsare concerned, so I don't know if you're right or if you're justspeculating.<<<I stated revenue, not profit. Revenue is simply number of units*unit price. Profit is a little more complicated where you have to subtract variable costs,and the initial profit margins have to pay back for fixed costs...so you areright if talking about how profitable the sales figures have turned.However, my original statement about 3DO blowing Jag revenue out of the waterwas more to point out public perception of value for each of these systems. Ithink I mentioned in a previous post something about the economics concept ofvalue/utility as measured by dollars. Revenue for each system is one way tomeasure the overall value perceived by the VG buying public of each system. Theoverall VG market has spent ("demanded" in economic terms) more than twice asmuch money on 3DO as it has on Jag. Of course there are other factors affectingthis interpretation (e.g. availability/distribution, etc.), but it is one toolin which to measure public opinion.-----Subj: HAWK423924... 94-09-04 19:32:04 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Really what do you like about it and what games do you like for it!?" -HAWK423924I like the graphics, sound, and music in a lot of 3DO games. In many cases,they're the best I've ever seen on a console system. I like the quality of thesystem itself - long controller cord, controller layout, etc. I like the stronglicensee support the system has. I like the quantity of games that are out forthe system. I don't think that any other system has ever gotten so many gamesout so fast. I like the lineup of upcoming games. I'm impressed by the wideavailability of the system (how many stores carry it, etc.). I'm impressed byhow quickly the price of the system has dropped. I like the fact that thesystem is available in Japan, which probably will result in more RPGs andshooters coming out for the system - games that are more popular in Japan thanthey are here.As far as games are concerned, I like Crash 'N Burn, The Horde, and Shock Wave. I bought Road Rash today, but haven't played it yet, since my 3DO is at collegeright now. I did see RR on display at a local EB, though, and it looks great. It could very well turn out to be my favorite Jag/3DO game yet if it plays asgood as the demo made it look. I'll probably post my thoughts on the game afterI play it tomorrow.I could list a lot of other things, but I think this is adequate. I find itodd, HAWK, that you're so concerned with whether or not I'm "anti-3DO", yet youapparently couldn't care less how "anti-Atari" somebody like Prince99 is. I ownboth of these systems and I like both of them. Anybody who accuses me of beingblindly anti- or pro- either system just doesn't know what he's talking about.Jason-----Subj: HAWK423924...cont. 94-09-04 19:32:48 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"'WOTW is more of a disappintment than JPI' How can you say this after youadmitted you haven't even played JPI!" - HAWK423924Because, even without playing JPI, I know that the hype, expectations, andpotential for that game were nowhere close to the hype, expectations, andpotential for WOTW."Also how can have a lot of positive things to say about SSF2T Its not even outyet!" - HAWK423924Heh. Unless Capcom screws up a port of their own arcade game, I think it's safeto say that SSF2T for the 3DO should at least be _very similar_ to the arcadeversion, which I _have_ played.Jason-----Subj: Re:ACLAM... 94-09-04 19:33:56 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>And I suspect that if the Jaguar had even half as many games out for it,anywhere close to the wide availability of the 3DO, and half as much hype aswhat the 3DO has received, it would be blowing the 3DO out of the water in termsof sales.<<<I suspect that you are right about this. My whole arguement against Atari,however, has been that it doesn't have the means (read "money") to do thesethings. I know that you were responding to my point that if 3DO had a lowerprice, it would be mopping the floor with Jag...I think 3DO has a better chanceat getting the price down than Jag has of doing what you have outlined above. Just my opinion....-----Subj: Re:Who cares 94-09-04 21:05:34 EDT From: PilBoyPosted on: America Online"It's easy to compare 3Do to jaguar and have 3Do win when they have the softwareout now .. whenever atari and their 3rd party support releases games we can seewhat is the better system .. right now 3Do is killing Jag but who knows thisfall "I agree, until the Jag shows some software, there really is no debate. On thisdate, 3DO wins , hands down.PilBoy-----Subj: Re:Prince99... 94-09-04 21:09:36 EDT From: PilBoyPosted on: America Online". You need to start _thinking_ about what you're saying before posting it,Prince. You can't keep misquoting, misrepresenting, name-calling, exaggerating,and flat out lying and expect to have any credibility.Jason "Jason, I don't agree with everything you say, but at least you say itintelligently, this is right on!!PilBoy-----Subj: Re:Jaguar Fans 94-09-04 22:29:22 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlinePython94 said:>>>>I have two words for Jaguar Fans: Electronic Arts!Fifa (on the Way) NFL 95(on the Way) Madden 95( on the Way) what else do I haveto say But EA! <<<<The above games will definitely be purchased for my 3DO. The most anticipatedone for me, though, is FIFA. It was good on the SNES, excellent on the Genesis,and great on the Sega-CD. I expect it to be mind blowing on the 3DO.-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-04 22:33:09 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 said:>>>> If Brutal Sports Football, Wolfenstein 3D, and the like are enough tokeep Jaguar sales in the same league as 3DO sales, imagine what games like AVPand DOOM could do. The idea that the 3DO is vastly outselling the Jaguar issimply a myth created online. <<<<Besides needing a vast infusion of games, I think Atari will *definitely* needto step up its advertising and go offensive with a full scale media blitz in thesame league with Sega and Nintendo. I also agree that the biggest factor keepingthe race close is price. IMHO, if the 3DO was $299.95, it would definitelyexperience a large surge of sales dwarfing Jaguar sales.-Mark :)-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-04 22:38:41 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineACLAM said:>>>>It depends on how you measure it. From a unit sales perspective, you areright...3DO hasn't totally blown Jag out of the water. It has sold more, butnot a lot more. However, in terms of revenue, 3DO has definitely blown the Jagout of the water. Since it is twice the price, more than twice the money hasbeen spent on 3DO than Jag. I suspect that if the prices were more similar, youwould see that unit sale blowout....<<<<I agree with your comparison of overall revenue, and the fact that the 3DO, bybasis of being more expensive, generates more revenue than the Jaguar on a perunit basis. But what is the gross profit? Looking past that, what really mattersto game developers is number of units sold to increase their prospectiveaudience to sell their productions.-----Subj: Re:Ah, Intelligent people... 94-09-04 22:55:18 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlinePrince99 said:>>>>This folder is a trip... hearing the same 4 people bash WoTW and a collegestudent blabber on ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT about how bad WoTW is and about 3DO/Jagsales figures just blows my mind... <<<<Just for the record, I am a college student too. Secondly, if we have to fallsubject to your endless tirades about WotW being the greatest thing since slicedbread, then you can listen to our more coherent thoughts pointing out thenegative aspects of the game.>>>>This means were dealing with 1 of many things here: 1. The boy has NOTHING,NOTHING, NOTHING to do but stay on AOL all day. 2. The boy is so insecure abouthis life because he has NOTHING to do but argue. 3. He has no life... <<<<Besides being childish in nature and content, the above has *nothing* to do withthe issues being presented within this forum. Why not try logically andintelligently attacking Jason's and other's ideas and opinions instead of theperson itself?>>>>I mean, reading these posts by 5 people saying how bad WoTW is and stufflike that, is ridiculous... Jason is ridiculous and spends all his mom's moneyon this service. We all heard his arguments about all the great games for 3DO,and 3DO/Jag situation, even though he has NOTHING to do with the industrywhatsoever. <<<<Irrelevant. By arbitrarily dismissing Jason's argument for not being an activeparticipant in the industry, you have dismissed your claim. The fact is,Prince99, that Jason is an active member of the industry. He is a user. The restof this segment of your message is discarded simply because it serves nopurpose.>>>>Many people love WoTW, but others don't. That survey thing about WoTW wasanother trip, because you could improve any game... People in the 3DO Forum andothers here on AOL and CServe love the game... who's to say their wrong? What,because the all important and mighty college student says so? <<<<Yes, you can improve any game, but that wasn't the point. The small, samplesurvey was trying to garner opinions and responses to what gamers who play WotWthink about various aspects of the game. We can take that survey of 20 peopleand add it to the "lowly" 5 who participate in this conference. That effectivelymakes the number 25.>>>>I think it was all summed up the best by the guy who said he returned it ina day or two... it's obvious no attempt was made at the magic moves, specialmoves, or anything... Jason, and Nirwanda, and others, are all unskilled,followers.<<<<I returned WotW today after owning the game for little over three days. I amsorry Prince99, but the game is simply poor. Yes, it does have some goodaspects, but the bad definitely outweighs the good in this game. Like always(including you), this is IMHO. On the same subject, fighting games are one of myfavorite types, and Way is definitely not in the same class as any of the arcadegames I have played nor even original home versions on the SNES or Genesis. Itis definitely subpar. You are simply going to have to learn to agree todisagree.>>>>What else is Jason gonna say after his chum Nirwanda and him talk beforeWoTW is released and Nirwanda tells him how bad WoTW is? HT Gaming is giving itan 8, and right away Jason argues with HT Gaming about how it's not an 8!Unbelievable! <<<<Jason is logically and intelligently countering HTGaming's claim. Nowhere in hismessage did he *personally* attack HT Gaming in a playground bullying style.Instead, he attacked HT Gaming's position in an adult fashion.Your posts over and over degrade into playground name calling simply because youare unable to debate various negative issues of 3DO logically or coherently. Aslong as an opinion is in alignment with yours, you have no problems. But as soonas someone disagrees with you, your posts become useless. You really need tostop getting personal and stick to the issues at hand.-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-04 23:00:39 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>I agree with your comparison of overall revenue, and the fact that the 3DO,by basis of being more expensive, generates more revenue than the Jaguar on aper unit basis. But what is the gross profit? Looking past that, what reallymatters to game developers is number of units sold to increase their prospectiveaudience to sell their productions.<<<I agree with your point, but also consider this. By making the platformCD-ROM-based, developers for 3DO are getting bigger margins than they havegotten for any other platform except SegaCD. And the fact that SegaCD is anadd-on is poor incentive for developers to develop for it (they can reach a muchbigger consumer base...enough for the volume to make up for the margindifference).As far as gross profit, also remember this...Atari, like Sega and Nintendo, isgoing to try to make most of their money from software sales. I'm guessing thatthe Jag has razor-thin margins, especially if IBM is being contracted to dotheir manufacturing and they are using custom chips which have no economies ofscale. Panasonic, while it makes some money off of software (Pebble Beach Golf,etc.), it is basically an electronics company (not an entertainment company) andneeds to maintain a thicker margin to remain profitable. Fortunately, they haveMatsushita's size and strength to drive manufacturing costs down. For example,while CD-ROM drives are generally costly, the fact that Matsushita builds CD-ROMdrives for a MUCH wider audience than just the 3DO machine means that theirdrives will achieve the economies of scale.Overall, what this means is that Panasonic will probably be able to get the costdown to below $300 sometime in the next 12-18 months (my guess), making it aviable product for mass unit sales. The comparison of revenue between 3DO andJag right now is mainly an indication of perceived value by the VG public ofwhich provides more bang for the buck.-----Subj: Any new rumours? 94-09-04 23:41:44 EDT From: ChotusPosted on: America OnlineHas anyone head any NEW rumours of MK II being announced for the "Jaguar"? Ihad heard that when it got close to being released for SNES and Genesis, thatBally would announce it for the "Jaguar" Can anyone confirm or denythis?...............Chotus-----Subj: Re:HAWK423924...cont. 94-09-05 00:05:14 EDT From: HAWK423924 Posted on: America Online"Because, even without playing JPI i know" I dont want to hear any excuses afterthat statement ! You know nothing about JPI so your opinion of even refering toit is useless! And i for one was much more hyped for JPI then WOTW im sure alotof other 3DOers where too ! No one even heard of this game untill a few monthsago unless of course you were on an online service! JPI was on the SAMPLER DISCeverybody who owns a 3do knew about it! "UNLESS Cacpcom screws up" Unlessanysoftware house doesn't screw up a game should be great!According to you iguess Naughty Dog screwed up!So what in the world makes you think capcom cantscrew up?And dont reply back with capcom is a well known house that puts outquality software or some baloney like that! ----- Subj: Facts. 94-09-05 00:07:32 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineThere are many people, on AOL, Prodigy, etc, that believe WOTW is a superiorfighting game. In fact, at least 4 people completely disagreed with Jason'sabsurd review of the game.Jason says, "WOTW is so bad it will hurt 3DO."The people who disagreed with him said, "it is a great fighting game."Who is right? Bytehead? Jason? Hanoi? Sub Z? The people who put WOTW in theirtop 3 games list for 3DO? The game is NOT* poor if there are so many who believeotherwise.FACT. FACT. FACT.-----Subj: ByteHed, ACLAM... 94-09-05 00:47:57 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Besides needing a vast infusion of games, I think Atari will *definitely* needto step up its advertising and go offensive with a full scale media blitz in thesame league with Sega and Nintendo." - ByteHedI agree. The print ads are already there, though. The AVP ad is one of thebest video game print ads I've ever seen. I still haven't seen _any_ Jaguar adson TV, though. I know that they're out there, but I just haven't seen anymyself yet."IMHO, if the 3DO was $299.95, it would definitely experience a large surge ofsales dwarfing Jaguar sales." - ByteHedThe point I'm making is simply that if we're going to discuss "what if"scenarios, we should include a "what if the Jaguar had more games" scenario. Yes, 3DO sales would likely improve significantly _if_ the price went evenlower, but, in the same way, Jaguar sales would likely improve significantly_if_ more games were out for the system. The current reality, though, is that ahigh price is keeping 3DO sales low and a lack of games is keeping Jaguar saleslow. The Jaguar can easily overcome it's obstacle as developers have more timeto finish up games, but how easy will it be, if it's even _possible_, for the3DO to drop down to the $300 range or lower anytime in the near future?The Jaguar's problem is short term and likely will soon be overcome. The 3DO'sproblem is long term. Yes, there are advantages to making a system CD based,but one of the disadvantages - a higher system price - is a _huge_ disadvantagethat won't easily go away. ACLAM mentioned that he thinks that the 3DO may dropto the $300 range in the next 12-18 months. Even if that ends up being the case(and that's a big "if"), 12-18 months is a long time. The Jaguar and 32Xprobably will have accomplished a lot in that time and the Saturn, Ultra 64, andPS-X probably will already be out. It's taking 3DO a long time just to approachthe price that the Jaguar started at.Jason-----Subj: HAWK423924... 94-09-05 01:58:28 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"'Because, even without playing JPI i know' I dont want to hear any excusesafter that statement !" - HAWK423924Again, there's no need to play a game in order to know how much it was hyped,what people expected from it, how much potential it had, and what other peoplethought of it after playing it. I think that WOTW was more of a disappointmentthan JPI for a few reasons. For one thing, it's from a more popular genre and,therefore, certainly had more system-selling potential. It also received a lotof hype on Internet and elsewhere through David Liu and Naughty Dog postingonline regularly. Not only that, but from what I read online, many more peoplewere anticipating WOTW than were anticipating JPI."'UNLESS Cacpcom screws up' Unless anysoftware house doesn't screw up a gameshould be great!According to you i guess Naughty Dog screwed up!So what in theworld makes you think capcom cant screw up?" - HAWK423924Capcom is porting a game that already exists and has proven itself as a qualityproduct. In fact, they made the game that they're porting. Also, Capcom hassuccessfully ported a similar game (Super SF2) to both the SNES and the Genesis. Of course it's possible that SSF2T for the 3DO won't end up being anywhereclose to the arcade version because Capcom screws up the port, but that'sunlikely, though."And dont reply back with capcom is a well known house that puts out qualitysoftware or some baloney like that!" - HAWK423924Well, it just happens to be true. You _do_ realize, don't you, that Super SF2Turbo is _already out in arcades_ and that Capcom is just converting it to the3DO? I know that it's possible that Capcom will mess up the port, but it'sreally unlikely.Jason-----Subj: Prince99 and "facts" <snicker> 94-09-05 01:59:18 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"FACT. FACT. FACT." - Prince99I hear that if you say "FACT" three times at the end of your posts, itautomatically makes everything you said true! :)Jason-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-05 02:11:07 EDT From: PETE64Posted on: America Online" From a unit sales perspective, you are right...3DO hasn't totally blown Jagout of the water."- AcclaimO.K., let's assume sales for both systems are still reasonably close. I am amajor Jag advocate, and it just makes me ill to think of the huge advantage theJaguar SHOULD have in sales by now HAD THEY GOTTEN THE FIRST BATCH OF GAMESOUT!!! Please, please, Atari, bring AVP out NOW! Seize the day! The 32X islooming and SSF2Turbo and SS are looming!!! NOW!O.K., back to the more technical aspects of the debate...-----Subj: Re:HAWK423924... 94-09-05 03:01:13 EDT From: HAWK423924 Posted on: America OnlineYou still haven't played it so your opinion is bubcus!And hell yeah capcom couldeasily screw up the port this is thier first 3DO title!!!!!! Look how long ittook CD AND EA to get the hang of the 3DO!I see you like to twist words aroundand sway away from the original arguments ! So be it! I grow tired with postingwith one who seems to want to argue about anything and everything!-----Subj: Re:the Jaguar 94-09-05 05:04:12 EDT From: TM23Posted on: America OnlineSure the Jaguar may pull out of this slump but by the time it does, IF it does,it will be much much too late. Unfortunately its' gloomy fate is set imo unlessthere is a ludicrous flood of quality titles before this X-mas and we all knowhow likely that is.-----Subj: HAWK423924... 94-09-05 09:54:43 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"I grow tired with posting with one who seems to want to argue about anythingand everything!" - HAWK423924How can you bring up an argument with me over whether or not my assessments ofJPI and SSF2T are accurate and then accuse _me_ of wanting to argue about"anything and everything"? Look in the mirror, pal.Jason-----Subj: TM23... 94-09-05 09:56:01 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Sure the Jaguar may pull out of this slump but by the time it does, IF it does,it will be much much too late." - TM23Now there's a solid argument! <sarcasm> Try actually _backing up_ yourarguments next time, okay, TM23?Let's not make a simple situation seem complex. There are ~150 Jaguar licenseesand around 100 games in development. Most of the licensees didn't sign on untilwithin the last few months and of those that signed on earlier, a few of theirgames are out, but a lot have been delayed by Atari for "quality control". Therefore, there are a _lot_ of games on the way to the Jaguar, but we haven'tseen many on store shelves yet. The problem isn't a lack of support for thissystem, but rather how late a lot of that support arrived.It's easy to jump on the Jaguar-bashing band wagon right now, but if youconsider what's in development rather than just focusing on what's already onthe shelves, you can't write this system off. Given more time, the games willcome out for this system and, of course, many of the people who are now comingout in _THRONGS_ to bash the Jaguar will be nowhere to be found. If you thinkthat a system with ~150 licensees and ~100 games in development is always goingto get only one new game every couple of months or so, you're fooling yourself.There's only one place where the Jaguar's future is being seriously questioned: online forums that 3DO owners have access to. You won't hear this kind ofskepticism about the Jaguar from the gaming media or from the companies that aremaking games for the system. This skepticism is coming, for the most part, from3DO owners who want the Jaguar to do poorly and who refuse to acknowledge that~100 games in development will eventually result in a lot more games on theshelves. Yes, the Jaguar should be criticized for its current lack of games,but refusing to acknowledge that 150 licensees and 100 games in development arelikely to result in a better future for the system is unreasonable. I have yetto hear _anybody_ put forth a convincing argument as to why a current lack ofgames (before Sega and Nintendo even have their systems _out on the market_)somehow translates into the system having no future.Jason-----Subj: Re: Jag sales.. source? 94-09-05 12:20:39 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineCan anyone quote a major Atari press release that has Jaguar unit sales? I'vebeen searching for this on many major databases and have found nothing.Without a formal press release, most everything reported in magazines orreported randomly to tiny niche publications by random Atari employees ishorribly unreliable and totally unofficial. My guess is about 25,000 units perquarter have been selling based on Atari's revenue (some erroneously ommit Jaggame sales to get a hire mark.. ie $8,000,000/approx $175 = quarterly sales. The reality is that the Crescent Galaxy's & Raidens & Dino-Dudes are rolling insome $$ for Atari as are misc ST peripherals, the Lynx, etc...). 100k is IMHOsignificantly too high. The total sales figure is more likely about 70,000. Ifit were 100k we would be seeing Atari revenue exceeding $10M quarterly as,unlike 3DO, they are the primary manufacturer (through IBM but that doesn'timpact revenue only profit - of which Atari has none).-----Subj: Re: Jag sales.. source? 94-09-05 12:42:40 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Can anyone quote a major Atari press release that has Jaguar unit sales?<<<At the end of June, right around SCES, Mr. Tramiel had a press conference wherehe quoted 60-70,000 units. I remember this very clearly, so even if I can'tfind a copy of the press announcement, I'm confident this was the number at theend of June.-----Subj: WOTW a bomb? 94-09-05 13:47:25 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineWhy Jason do you keep insisting WOTW hurts 3DO? Just because you and a fewpeople here online don't like it?Again, there are MANY of us here that believe it's a superior game that lived upto the hype. If many like it so much, it's not a bad game. I could care less ifyou call yourself a "fighting game expert" or not. There's no such thing.Chorus: No more will u cry-----Subj: Re:TM23... 94-09-05 13:58:40 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineThe 3DO has over 500 liscensees, and just LOOK at all the games that came out innearly a year. What, about 30? The JAG will suffer, as did the 3DO, for sometime. A developer does not a software title mean... IE...GameTek, Air Warrior,was included in the original software "soon to come" flyer when 3DO's cameout...where are they now? Road Rash took over a year to come out. Because the3DO has an OS, and developers do not have to write their own, the 3DO is easierto program, relatively, than the JAG. Games were in development last summer andare only beginning to appear now. If the many of the JAG's developers signed onin the last few months, how many MORE months 'till we see something? 6 games/10months...DO THE MATH. TK ----- Subj: Re:ByteHed, ACLAM... 94-09-05 14:30:06 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>ACLAM mentioned that he thinks that the 3DO may drop to the $300 range in thenext 12-18 months. Even if that ends up being the case (and that's a big "if"),12-18 months is a long time.<<<Actually, I think that it will happen sooner than later, and my 12-18 monthestimate was conservative. I recently saw an ad for a portable double-speedCD-ROM drive by Sony selling for $130. It had PhotoCD and audio CD capabilitiesas well as the functionality to handle MPC discs. At this price, I'd guess thatthe actual cost is probably around$60-$80 (this is a totally wild guess..I'm notwell versed in hardware costs and margins). If you estimate also that the 3DOchipset et al is approximately $150-$200 (ARM10 is about $15, I don't know theother chips), the total cost of this thing TODAY is probably in the vicinity of$200-$300. All Panasonic needs to do to get the price down is get the machineout in Europe...if sales match the rate of sales currently being seen in the US(or, even better, in Japan), this $200-$300 cost will go down significantlyalmost immediately. Remember, Panasonic brought the price down from $450 to$399 based on the performance of the machine in June and July...a successfulEuropean launch will almost guarantee a significant price drop.-----Subj: Regarding the AT&T modem thing.. 94-09-05 14:35:00 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America OnlineThe following bit of info is something I heard from a guy whose father works inthe VG industry...I'm not sure how reliable it is, but it seemed to make sense.This guy told me that one of the reasons that AT&T pulled out was becausePanasonic was pressuring 3DO to make the Panasonic modem currently underdevelopment the "standard" for 3DO modem spec. AT&T didn't want to play secondfiddle to Panasonic in an area which it considered itself to be the key player(communications and AT&T? nah... :) ). Had AT&T stayed on and 3DO agreed toPanasonic's position, AT&T would have had little control over the technologybeing used for the modem design. As a result, they pulled out.Anyone hear anything else about this?-----Subj: Re:Regarding the AT&T modem thin 94-09-05 15:23:32 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online>> This guy told me that one of the reasons that AT&T pulled out was becausePanasonic was pressuring 3DO to make the Panasonic modem currently underdevelopment the "standard" for 3DO modem spec. AT&T didn't want to play secondfiddle to Panasonic in an area which it considered itself to be the key player(communications and AT&T? nah... :) ). Had AT&T stayed on and 3DO agreed toPanasonic's position, AT&T would have had little control over the technologybeing used for the modem design. As a result, they pulled out. << Doesn't makeany sense -- they pulled out of making the Genny modem as well.Andrew-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-05 16:52:58 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>I agree with your point, but also consider this. By making the platformCD-ROM-based, developers for 3DO are getting bigger margins than they havegotten for any other platform except SegaCD. And the fact that SegaCD is anadd-on is poor incentive for developers to develop for it (they can reach a muchbigger consumer base...enough for the volume to make up for the margindifference).<<<I absolutely agree that the profit margin is grossly larger on CDs than carts. Ialso agree that by making the 3DO a CD only system, it basically removes theproblem of split resources within a given platform's development market. Gameproducers do not have to worry about splintered formats and maximizing sales(thus profits).>>>>As far as gross profit, also remember this...Atari, like Sega and Nintendo,is going to try to make most of their money from software sales. I'm guessingthat the Jag has razor-thin margins, especially if IBM is being contracted to dotheir manufacturing and they are using custom chips which have no economies ofscale.<<<<But which option yields the largest revenue and profit margins in the long run?If developers are charged a $1-3 royalty per CD, and Atari is able to charge$10-20 per cart, the revenue and profits generated respectively by Atari and 3DO(this is sans Matsushita/Panasonic) suddenly diverge as 3DO finds itself forcedto sell 700% minimum more to match the same level of income Atari isexperiencing. Now, this is not taking into fact that 3DO *could* raise theirroyalty structure ten fold and still offer a good deal. I am merely addressingcurrent trends.>>>>Panasonic, while it makes some money off of software (Pebble Beach Golf,etc.), it is basically an electronics company (not an entertainment company) andneeds to maintain a thicker margin to remain profitable. Fortunately, they haveMatsushita's size and strength to drive manufacturing costs down. For example,while CD-ROM drives are generally costly, the fact that Matsushita builds CD-ROMdrives for a MUCH wider audience than just the 3DO machine means that theirdrives will achieve the economies of scale.<<<<Correlate the following with my above response segment. Matsushita needs toemphysize software as well as hardware in the long run. Sales of 3DOs willsaturate and decline at some point. All platform making companies have knownthis, but the strength lies within fabrication of carts and royalties (alongwith various inhouse softs developed) to climb as sales peak, level, and declineon the hardware end of the market. How many SNES and Genesis units actually sellcompared to last year? But, how many carts are being sold? As for your otherstatement, I absolutely agree that Matsushita's sheer size and expert knowledgein assembly line fabrication, distribution channels, scaling of costs andoverall strengths in electronics can not be ignored and their primary strengthlies within manufacturing and selling the 3DO.>>>>Overall, what this means is that Panasonic will probably be able to get thecost down to below $300 sometime in the next 12-18 months (my guess), making ita viable product for mass unit sales. The comparison of revenue between 3DO andJag right now is mainly an indication of perceived value by the VG public ofwhich provides more bang for the buck.<<<<I agree with your above statement about perceived value. There is no question inmy mind as to who has the strength between Atari and Matsushita. But let's castaside other segments of the market and focus on generation of revenue. In thataspect, you are correct. In the area of profit margin and long term growth inprofits, I think Matsushita is the victor. In the area of generating profits onroyalties, unless 3DO changes its current royalty policy or Matsushita suddenlystarts royalty collecting and fabricating 3rd party softs, I feel Atari is thevictor. I really enjoyed your post, btw. :)-----Subj: Re:Any new rumours? 94-09-05 16:53:59 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>Has anyone head any NEW rumours of MK II being announced for the "Jaguar"? Ihad heard that when it got close to being released for SNES and Genesis, thatBally would announce it for the "Jaguar" Can anyone confirm or denythis?...............Chotus<<<In Acclaim's newsletter (The Pit II), they state MK II is definitely slated forthe 32X. Besides that, I haven't seen it announced for any other 32/64 bitplatform.-----Subj: Re:HAWK423924...cont. 94-09-05 16:58:33 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>> I dont want to hear any excuses after that statement ! You know nothingabout JPI so your opinion of even refering to it is useless! <<<<I have already bought and sold JPI. The hype was definitely more than theproduct itself. I was severely disappointed, but not nearly as disappointed as Iwas with WotW. Of course this is due to my natural inclination towards fightinggames.>>>>And i for one was much more hyped for JPI then WOTW im sure alot of other3DOers where too ! No one even heard of this game untill a few months ago unlessof course you were on an online service! JPI was on the SAMPLER DISC everybodywho owns a 3do knew about it!<<<<WotW was also on the $4.99 sampler disc being sold at EB, Babbages and SoftwareEtc..., but not the pack in variant. WotW has been being hyped for months,Hawk.>>>> "UNLESS Cacpcom screws up" Unless anysoftware house doesn't screw up a gameshould be great!According to you i guess Naughty Dog screwed up!So what in theworld makes you think capcom cant screw up?And dont reply back with capcom is awell known house that puts out quality software or some baloney like that!<<<<IMHO, Naughty Dog *did* "screw up" with WotW. Secondly, yes Capcom could productanother blunder, but Capcom has access to a larger source of production toolsthan Naughty Dog. They also have a lot more team members, capital, and industryexperience than Naughty Dog. That drops the probability of Capcom producing afaulty version of SSF2T. I did not say it removes it; it merely declinates thepossibility.-----Subj: Re:Facts. 94-09-05 17:02:10 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlinePrince99 said:>>>>There are many people, on AOL, Prodigy, etc, that believe WOTW is a superiorfighting game. In fact, at least 4 people completely disagreed with Jason'sabsurd review of the game. <<<<And they are entitled to that opinion, Prince. As I said, you are going to haveto learn to agree to disagree. No more; no less. Continually berating andattacking people in a childish manner will not sway their views, and it onlylessens your credibility and respect.>>>>Jason says, "WOTW is so bad it will hurt 3DO." The people who disagreed withhim said, "it is a great fighting game." <<<<And again, it is their opinion, Prince99.>>>>Who is right? Bytehead? Jason? Hanoi? Sub Z? The people who put WOTW intheir top 3 games list for 3DO? The game is NOT* poor if there are so many whobelieve otherwise. <<<<No one is "right" in the literal sense. Instead, you are experiencing whathappens every day in the whole world. People disagree. This is one instancewhere some people like the game and others do not. All Jason did was offer hishonest opinion on the game from his perception and likes/dislikes.>>>>FACT. FACT. FACT.<<<<OPINION. OPINION. OPINION. ;-p-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-05 17:15:26 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>But which option yields the largest revenue and profit margins in the longrun? If developers are charged a $1-3 royalty per CD, and Atari is able tocharge $10-20 per cart, the revenue and profits generated respectively by Atariand 3DO (this is sans Matsushita/Panasonic) suddenly diverge as 3DO finds itselfforced to sell 700% minimum more to match the same level of income Atari isexperiencing. <<<First, I am under the impression that Atari's royalty is currently $5 forlicensees, which in combination with the cost of manufacturing carts, is clearlyless attractive than 3DO's royalty structure. Of course, Atari also makes moneyon software which they develop themselves, so the average per game sold rises. However, I understand your point about the 700%, so think about this...3DO hasmade it very simple to become a licensee and has done a tremendous amount ofwork to make game development easy. The fact that they got Macromedia to do a3DO version of their Director product means that there will be lots ofedutainment and reference stuff soon available. The number of titles out beingsold now beats the 700% easily, and as a result, the unit sales will also goup...this all helps the revenue side of 3DO.>>>Matsushita needs to emphysize software as well as hardware in the long run.Sales of 3DOs will saturate and decline at some point. All platform makingcompanies have known this, but the strength lies within fabrication of carts androyalties (along with various inhouse softs developed) to climb as sales peak,level, and decline on the hardware end of the market.<<<I understand that hardware market saturation becomes a problem if the technologydoesn't move forward. If the world was stuck with Intel 286 processors, theproduct becomes a commodity and hardware vendors lose out (a la IBM). However,3DO seems to be aggressive in their strategy to move the technology forward(Trip Hawkins has admitted that his strategy won't work unless they are on theleading edge of technology). I would say that 3DO is a technology company andPanasonic is a technology company, while Sega, Nintendo, Atari, etc. areentertainment companies (content-driven). Because 3DO and Panasonic have thisfocus, they can concentrate their strategies to fit a completely differentrevenue model and be successful. I have a feeling that Atari can't decide whichit is (technology vs. entertainment), and therefore doesn't have a businessstrategy which is cohesive and appropriate to their cause..>>> I really enjoyed your post, btw<<<I enjoy yours, too... :)-----Subj: Re:JasonTE3 94-09-05 17:15:42 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 said:>>>>I agree. The print ads are already there, though. The AVP ad is one of thebest video game print ads I've ever seen. I still haven't seen _any_ Jaguar adson TV, though. I know that they're out there, but I just haven't seen anymyself yet.<<<<I have not seen any Jaguar TV ads either. It would not hurt Atari to try andsecure a large infusion of capital at this point. IMHO, it is make or break timethis X-mas. Next Xmas, the big boys will be in the game. :)>>>>The point I'm making is simply that if we're going to discuss "what if"scenarios, we should include a "what if the Jaguar had more games" scenario. Yes, 3DO sales would likely improve significantly _if_ the price went evenlower, but, in the same way, Jaguar sales would likely improve significantly_if_ more games were out for the system.<<<<I absolutely agree with your aversion for useless what if scenarios. But myactual point was <g> "What If the 3DO were $299.95 *now*" :) Yes, I know youranswer will be, "Well then, what if the Jaguar had a large library NOW." ;-p Iguess it comes down to can the 3DO continue to lower their price and grow theirlibrary even more before the supposed bombardment of Jaguar games comes. :)>>>> The current reality, though, is that a high price is keeping 3DO sales lowand a lack of games is keeping Jaguar sales low. <<<<I absolutely agree. Again and again we have said the 3DO is priced outside ofthat magic number, and that the Jaguar continues to stagnate due to a dismalnumber of games on the shelf.>>>>The Jaguar can easily overcome it's obstacle as developers have more time tofinish up games, but how easy will it be, if it's even _possible_, for the 3DOto drop down to the $300 range or lower anytime in the near future? <<<<Hmmm, I think Matsushita will continue to get the price down as they streamlineand increase the efficiency of their fabrication lines on the 3DO. I do believeit is possible, but the question hanging over our heads now is can they do it intime? Will the Jaguar flood the market with quality software and experience itsjust rewards? Will the 3DO hit that magic zone and experience large sales? Willthe name brand games coming out from Konami and Capcom sway SNES and Genesisowners? Questions abound, and all we can do right now is sit and wait, or debateendlessly in a speculative manner that drives us all mad. :)>>>>The Jaguar's problem is short term and likely will soon be overcome.<<<<No, I disagree, but in a different way than what you are saying. I say the mostobvious factor right now is lack of games, but who is to say that will remedythe Jaguar's sagging sales? We don't know. The Turbo Duo had oodles of games onthe shelves, and so did the Sega Master system. This still did not save eitherplatform.>>>> The 3DO's problem is long term. Yes, there are advantages to making asystem CD based, but one of the disadvantages - a higher system price - is a_huge_ disadvantage that won't easily go away.<<<<I absolutely agree. The price is simply too large for the average gamer tohandle. Even in the first cycle of development the SNES was only $199.95, andthe Genesis $189.95. The 3DO was $699.95, and even now it is still twice that ofthe SNES and Genesis when first introduced.>>>> ACLAM mentioned that he thinks that the 3DO may drop to the $300 range inthe next 12-18 months. Even if that ends up being the case (and that's a big"if"), 12-18 months is a long time.<<<<I agree that 12-18 months is too long, but the Saturn and PS-X will be the sameprice if not more than the 3DO by that time. The Ultra64 is due late next yearor early '96. The biggest road block is the 32X and Jaguar right now inreference to price comparison. I think the 32X will surprise everyone thisX-mas, but of course we have debated that point already. :) Basically, theremaining variables now are whether the $399 price will work, and whether theupcoming surge of games for the Jaguar will rejuvinate it.-----Subj: Re:HAWK423924... 94-09-05 17:20:21 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineHawk said:>>>>You still haven't played it so your opinion is bubcus!<<<<Reread his post *again* He is not talking about whether he personally likes thegame. He is addressing the media hype, ads, and expectations, and the results bygame players, magazines and sales. Nowhere does he mention the neccessity ofactually having played the game, Hawk.>>>>And hell yeah capcom could easily screw up the port this is thier first 3DOtitle!!!!!!<<<<He already said there is a possibility, Hawk. But you must look at Capcom'sporting track record, their great games, large resources, and usually greatreviews of their products.>>>> Look how long it took CD AND EA to get the hang of the 3DO!I<<<<Like what? Besides a very nasty bug in The Horde, I don't remember any of theirproducts being subpar. This includes The Horde, and Total Eclipse as firstgeneration products.>>>> see you like to twist words around and sway away from the originalarguments ! So be it! I grow tired with posting with one who seems to want toargue about anything and everything!<<<So he should just lay down and agree with you simply because you grow tired ofarguing (while entering an argumentative message?) <chuckle> :)-----Subj: Re:WOTW a bomb? 94-09-05 17:24:30 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>>Why Jason do you keep insisting WOTW hurts 3DO? Just because you and a fewpeople here online don't like it?<<<<I don't think it will personally hurt the 3DO, but I do think it is a poorgame.>>>>Again, there are MANY of us here that believe it's a superior game thatlived up to the hype. If many like it so much, it's not a bad game. I could careless if you call yourself a "fighting game expert" or not. There's no suchthing. <<<<But if the same amount dislike the game, does the equal representation meananything? Does that segment that dislikes the game count for anything? You can'tplay selective statistics, Prince.-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-05 17:37:12 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineACLAM said:>>>>First, I am under the impression that Atari's royalty is currently $5 forlicensees, which in combination with the cost of manufacturing carts, is clearlyless attractive than 3DO's royalty structure.<<<<If that is the case ($5/cart royalty), then that definitely strengthens 3DO'sroyalty structure considering costs to manufacturer a cart vs. a CD.>>>> Of course, Atari also makes money on software which they developthemselves, so the average per game sold rises. <<<<I see that Matsushita is selling titles inhouse too (Guardian War, SSF2T). Itwould seem they wish to handle import conversions, which could be a verylucrative market for them. Do you agree that along with hardware that Matsushitashould emphysize inhouse software sales too?>>>>However, I understand your point about the 700%, so think about this...3DOhas made it very simple to become a licensee and has done a tremendous amount ofwork to make game development easy. The fact that they got Macromedia to do a3DO version of their Director product means that there will be lots ofedutainment and reference stuff soon available. The number of titles out beingsold now beats the 700% easily, and as a result, the unit sales will also goup...this all helps the revenue side of 3DO.<<<<Hmmmm, while I like the sheer number of titles being available (effectivelyincreasing the potential sales pool of software, thus royalties), I have feltfor some time that edutainment and productivity like software is not the way togo. I feel 3DO software developers should emphysize the marketing strategiesthat have garnered huge revenues and profits for companies now.>>>>However, 3DO seems to be aggressive in their strategy to move the technologyforward (Trip Hawkins has admitted that his strategy won't work unless they areon the leading edge of technology). I would say that 3DO is a technologycompany and Panasonic is a technology company, while Sega, Nintendo, Atari, etc.are entertainment companies (content-driven). Because 3DO and Panasonic havethis focus, they can concentrate their strategies to fit a completely differentrevenue model and be successful.<<<<Hmmm, I somewhat disagree with the current model you are projecting for 3DO. Ifeel that constantly offering new hardware (even upgrades), will discourage thegame playing market. Unless 3DO is willing to put a window between upgrades thatreflect current trends being executed by other game companies (Sega, NOJ), theyface gamer dissention and desertion. Gamers want a platform that will stay as isfor 2-3 years minimum. Not constantly changing standards.>>>>I have a feeling that Atari can't decide which it is (technology vs.entertainment), and therefore doesn't have a business strategy which is cohesiveand appropriate to their cause..<<<<I don't think internally Atari is experiencing this problem, but I feel theirpricing of the Jaguar leaves them currently in a limbo zone. It is $150 morethan a SNES or Sega, yet $150 less than a 3DO. Perhaps Atari will find itselfaddressing a market segment untapped, but I doubt it. I expect the Jaguar tofall to $199.95 soon to enter that magic zone of Sega and Nintendo. Nintendo haslong said the magic number is under $200. I tend to agree with this theory.-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-05 17:57:31 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Hmmm, I somewhat disagree with the current model you are projecting for 3DO.I feel that constantly offering new hardware (even upgrades), will discouragethe game playing market. Unless 3DO is willing to put a window between upgradesthat reflect current trends being executed by other game companies (Sega, NOJ),they face gamer dissention and desertion. Gamers want a platform that will stayas is for 2-3 years minimum. Not constantly changing standards.<<<I agree that constantly changing standards are bad, but this is not what I'msaying. I am using the Microsoft model here. 3DO has an OS which can beimplemented on a variety of hardware. This allows for backwards compatibilityof games on newer hardware. The new hardware will typically be priced high,attracting only the "early adopters" until the price can be driven down...earlyadopters will be happy because they can play their old games as well as have themost recent stuff. During that time, software developers can get a head starton developing for the higher performance machines. As the price comes down,maybe 12-18 months after introduction, the rest of the comsumer market can getinto it. This is basically what has happened (or is in the midst of happening)for 3DO today. Yes, there will be some folks who just want to stick with theFZ-1 (and not eventually upgrade to the FZ-2, FZ-3, etc)...these people will bestuck playing 3DO version 1.0 games. But 3DO version 2.0, 3.0, etc. will stayon the leading edge...-----Subj: Why anti-this or anti-that? 94-09-05 19:21:30 EDT From: Nirwanda Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 writes "This skepticism is coming, for the most part, from 3DO ownerswho want the Jaguar to do poorly and who refuse to acknowledge that ~100 gamesin development will eventually result in a lot more games on the shelves."Why would anyone WANT the Jaguar to do poorly? Is it too optimistic to insteadWANT the 3DO to do well? Certainly we'd all be better off if the varioushardware + software offerings come out MORE enjoyable. This whole concept ofwishing ill-will upon companies is beyond me.Nir-----Subj: Re:Why anti-this or anti-that? 94-09-05 21:29:43 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Why would anyone WANT the Jaguar to do poorly?<<<Possibly because some people think that in order for 3DO to do well, Jag must dopoorly? I don't necessarily subscribe to this concept, but I don't think it isoutside the realm of possibility....-----Subj: I'm back. 94-09-05 21:34:33 EDT From: SLAMDUNK2 Posted on: America OnlineHello all,I'm back. And I'm surprised to see that this folder still exists. :)Anyone know where RandyBORL went?slam dunk nut-----Subj: Re:unit sales 94-09-06 00:02:26 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>>I agree that constantly changing standards are bad, but this is not what I'msaying.<<<<After reading your following explaination, it appears that what I thought youwere saying was correct. Even maintaining compatibility, the idea you outlinedbelow still involves constantly changing standards. The fact that thosestandards are upwardly compatible with each other lessens the blow, but the factstill remains. Personally, I like the idea of maintaining compatibility throughthe means of upgrading hardware and keeping the OS compatible. From a businesssense, I think it spells bad news in the long run, IMHO, for the reasons Ioutlined in my previous message.-----Subj: Re:Why anti-this or anti-that? 94-09-06 00:04:38 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineACLAM said:>>>>>>>Why would anyone WANT the Jaguar to do poorly?<<<Possibly because some people think that in order for 3DO to do well, Jag must dopoorly? I don't necessarily subscribe to this concept, but I don't think it isoutside the realm of possibility.... <<<<It all comes down to can both companies share a piece of the pie? Can 3DO andAtari compete like Sega and Nintendo have been doing? Can both companies besuccessful within their own vertical market? I say the answer is yes, butunfortunately, other players are moving in who will splinter the market evenmore.-----Subj: A good laugh 94-09-06 03:15:25 EDT From: Hardman19 Posted on: America OnlineThis folder makes me laugh. I swear it's the funniest damn place in all of AOL.Just imagine if we all got in one conference at the same time.......Scarythought... I'm glad this exists though, without it my day wouldn't be complete.:) Have fun!-----Subj: Re:Regarding the AT&T modem thin 94-09-06 11:34:31 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> Doesn't make any sense -- they pulled out of making the Genny modem as well.- Andrew <<<it makes even less sense when you consider that the 3DO voicespan modem was ajoint development between Matsushita and AT&T...-----Subj: Re:Prince99 (folder space) 94-09-06 12:40:18 EDT From: VGSJay Posted on: America Online"Hey Prince, can you try to cut down on the number of messages you post? Thesefolders can only hold 500 before they fill up, and it seems like a lot of yourposts are pretty repetitive...they could be easily summed up to one or twoposts..."Just thought I should add that folder space isn't really a concern. I can deleteand replace this folder as long as I have a day or so notice. (BTW, I wouldappreciate it if someone would E-mail me when the folder starts getting toofull.) Any volunteers for achiving this folder or should we even bother?I do agree that repetitive posts should be kept to a minimum, though._|/\\/ VGS Jay-----Subj: Re:A good laugh 94-09-06 13:30:38 EDT From: VGSJay Posted on: America Online"This folder makes me laugh. I swear it's the funniest damn place in all of AOL.Just imagine if we all got in one conference at the same time.......Scarythought... I'm glad this exists though, without it my day wouldn't be complete.:) Have fun!"Which reminds me... :::diving for shelter::: You are all invited to the VGS chatnight this and every Wednesday (tomorrow, 9/7) at 10 PM ET. The chat ends whenour heads hit the keyboards. VGS staff will be present so the rifraff usuallystay clear. Sculptured and NOA people have been known to hang around, too.Looking forward to seeing y'all there! (But leave the flame guns at home, 'kay?:)_|/\\/ VGS Jay-----Subj: Re:Brutal People 94-09-06 16:17:10 EDT From: Thom21Posted on: America OnlineI too own both 3DO and Jaguar and I must say this Jaguar bashing and WOTWbashing is quite crude. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I myselfthink WOTW is a disappointment, but Road Rash is the best game ever for a homesytem. I now have 4 3do title that I rate a nine Road Rash, Shock Wave, JohnMadden Football, and Wing Commander. Does this make 3DO better than Jaguar? Iwould not go so far. I can remember waiting about 8 months for great 3DO gamesto come out. So the Jaguar may take a month or two longer. While I love my3DO I also love my Jaguar. Tempest 2000 and Wolfenstein 3D are fun games. Iwill say that I tried playing Escape from monster manor after playingwolfenstein on the Jag and could not do it. The jag was so smooth that monstermanor was now seemed slow and jerky. People who bash Trevor McFur and Dino Dudesshould remember how happy we 3DO owners would have been during the couple monthsthat PUTT PUTT was the best 3DO game available to have such games.The point to all this rambling is to stop all this system bashing. The Jaguarand 3DO have the entire Christmas season to prove themselves (which doesn'tstart until October). Sega and Nintendo still are a year or more away fromtheir next generation sytems. We should be happy that Atari and Panasonic hadthe forsight to bring their systems out a year earlier. The games will be heresoon and both systems have advantages and disadvantages but the fact is at leastthey are here today and now. A year from now 3DO and Jag may be the top twosystems (I would not be so bold or naive to predict in which order at this earlydate) and Nintendo and Sega may just be distant memories.DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY Play Games on whatever system floats your boat THOM-----Subj: AvP and Kasumi Ninja - Done! 94-09-06 17:48:24 EDT From: JBBJRPosted on: America OnlineWord on the Internet is that AvP has just been approved by Fox and the lastcoding changes have been completed to Kasumi Ninja. They are both going intoproduction this week!we'll see them in 4 to 7 weeks-----Subj: Re:A good laugh 94-09-06 21:27:32 EDT From: Nirwanda Posted on: America OnlineHardman19 writes: "This folder makes me laugh. I swear it's the funniest damnplace in all of AOL."You should check out some of the better flame wars on USENET, HM. Groups likealt.religion.kibology, alt.flame, and alt.fan.furrymuck have TONS of differentflame wars going on a time.BTW - plus the fact that USENET folks are "allowed" to use four letter words isthe icing on the cake.Nir-----Subj: Thom21... 94-09-06 21:33:31 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"The point to all this rambling is to stop all this system bashing. The Jaguarand 3DO have the entire Christmas season to prove themselves (which doesn'tstart until October)." - Thom21Good post, Thom. I agree with nearly everything you said. It is indeed far tooearly to declare either of these systems a success or to write either one off. It's even more speculative to assume that any of the systems that aren'treleased yet will be successful. Yes, Sega, Sony, and Nintendo have the_potential_ to give Atari and 3DO more competition than they can handle, but,then again, how close have the Jaguar and 3DO come to meeting up to _their_pre-release expectations? Did antbody expect the NES or Genesis to be assuccessful as they've been? Did anybody expect the SNES to have such a hardtime competing with the Genesis? Even as far as the Jaguar and 3DO areconcerned, did anybody expect the Jaguar to get so much third party support anddid anybody expect the price of the 3DO to drop so fast? It's hard tospeculate, with any accuracy, about systems that are already out, let alone onesthat haven't even been released yet. Until the 32X, Ultra 64, etc. are actuallyout, enjoy the Jaguar and the 3DO and just wait and see which systems end upcoming out ahead. It's far too early to worry about either of these systemsdying.Jason-----Subj: Re:Thom21... 94-09-06 21:44:35 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>It is indeed far too early to declare either of these systems a success or towrite either one off. It's even more speculative to assume that any of thesystems that aren't released yet will be successful.<<<Yeah, but what fun would it be to sit and wait to see? I personally like tospeculate about these things because in a way I like to see how good myprediction skills are....good for keeping on my toes at work, too...-----Subj: Re:AvP and Kasumi Ninja - Done! 94-09-06 23:56:26 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>>Word on the Internet is that AvP has just been approved by Fox and the lastcoding changes have been completed to Kasumi Ninja. They are both going intoproduction this week!<<<<You can keep Kasumi Ninja. :) I'll just be happy with AvP.>>>>we'll see them in 4 to 7 weeks<<<<That's almost two months at the worst extreme. A month at best. October is longaway, as is November. :( ----- Subj: Re:AvP and Kasumi Ninja - Done! 94-09-07 01:06:50 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> > >>>Word on the Internet is that AvP has just been approved by Fox and > >the last coding changes have been completed to Kasumi Ninja. They are > > bothgoing into production this week!<<<< > > You can keep Kasumi Ninja. :) I'll justbe happy with AvP. > > >>>>we'll see them in 4 to 7 weeks<<<< > > That's almosttwo months at the worst extreme. A month at best. October > is long away, as isNovember. :(Well, seeing how these titles were supposed to ship in March, another monthisn't too bad.Andrew-----Subj: ACLAM... 94-09-07 12:48:39 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineSpeculating is fine as long as it's not carried to an unreasonable extreme. When people start writing these systems off because of how well unreleasedsystems from Sega, Sony, and Nintendo might do, though, that's carryingspeculation to an unreasonable extreme.When people say something such as, "If the Jaguar doesn't get X number of gamesby the end of October, it's going to die," it's nothing more than baselessspeculation. It would be like people having declared the Genesis dead after ithad been out half a year and only had about 8-10 games. Of course, nobody wouldkeep in mind that Nintendo _hadn't even released their system yet_, but thatdidn't matter, since all that people were interested in was complaining abouthow few games were out at the time. System wars always last years and declaringthe Jaguar dead now makes about as little sense as it would have made to havedeclared the Genesis dead because of its lack of games several months after itsrelease.People are comparing what the Jaguar is today to what the PS-X, Ultra 64, andother systems _could_ be _a year from now_. Since the Jaguar falls short insuch a comparison, it's declared dead. If the Jaguar is on the brink of death,who's killing it? 3DO, with only ~100,000 units sold here so far? Are Sega's,Sony's, and Nintendo's _promises_ killing the Jaguar? The reason why nobody canexplain what's killing the system is because it isn't dying. Atari is sevengames, ~100,000 customers, a year plus of advertising time, and dozens of gamesin development _ahead_ of Sega, Sony, and Nintendo. When a system gets off to a_head_ start, it can also get off to a _slow_ start. I'm not denying that Sega,Sony, and Nintendo have the potential to offer some serious competition, but Iam denying that that potential amounts to much until the systems are actuallyout. When the Ultra 64 and other systems are released, people will comparethose systems to the Jagaur of that time, not to the Jaguar of today. Witharound 100 games in development, there likely will be at least ~100 games outfor this system a year from now. A $250 (or less at that time, most likely)system with ~100+ games can be a serious competitor to a $250-$500 PS-X, Saturn,or Ultra 64 with only a few games available for it.I wish that somebody had archived this debate from the start, since I'd like topost what people like Slow Brew, Zylo, etc. had said about the Jaguar being deadearly this year. After that prediction fell flat on its face, the system wassupposed to die this summer. Of course, the system wasn't even supposed to getoff the ground in the first place. Atari would never be able to get such apowerful system on the market for such a low price and the system would neverget any third party support anyway. Atari had "burned too many bridges" in thepast and therefore would get almost no licensees to sign on to make Jaguargames. Remember that "burned too many bridges" line that was often used beforethe Jaguar came out and even a little while after it was released? :) I haveyet to see any significant negative prediction about the Jaguar turn out to beaccurate over the long run. With 150+ licensees signed on, around 100 games indevelopment, and a low price tag, this system has gone much farther than mostpeople expected. The only thing that those who have been hammering this systemcan hold onto is the current lack of games. Therefore, we hear time and timeagain about how the current lack of games translates into the system having nofuture. The fact of the matter, though, is that the number of games out for theJaguar in September of '94 isn't the determining factor in whether or not thesystem succeeds. Ignoring 100 games in development, just because of yourfrustration that only 7 are out right now, can distort your view of a system'sfuture.Jason----- Subj: Re:AvP and Kasumi Ninja - Done! 94-09-07 13:23:04 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online> That's almost two months at the worst extreme. A month at best. October > islong away, as is November. :(>>>>Well, seeing how these titles were supposed to ship in March, another monthisn't too bad.<<<<All I dread is somewhere the old Atari "magic" kicks in and the games aredelayed yet *again*. :)-----Subj: Re:AvP and Kasumi Ninja - Done! 94-09-07 16:20:00 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> > That's almost two months at the worst extreme. A month at best. > > Octoberis long away, as is November. :( > > >>>>Well, seeing how these titles weresupposed to ship in March, > another month isn't too bad.<<<< > > All I dread issomewhere the old Atari "magic" kicks in and the > games are delayed yet*again*. :)I doubt it. Atari can't afford that, they really can't.Speaking of upcoming games, does anything think that Alien Trilogy from Acclaimwill be a better game than AvP? It sure looks nifty...Andrew-----Subj: Re:ACLAM... 94-09-07 18:00:56 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>I wish that somebody had archived this debate from the start, since I'd liketo post what people like Slow Brew, Zylo, etc. had said about the Jaguar beingdead early this year. After that prediction fell flat on its face, the systemwas supposed to die this summer.<<<Jaguar? What's that? How long has it been out? How many games does it have? How many GOOD games does it have? Ooooooohhhh you mean that dead Atari "64 bit"thing that I'm TRYING to sell right now, but no poor sap will take it off myhands.-----Subj: Re: JasonTE 94-09-07 19:10:46 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"Atari would never be able to get such a powerful system on the market for sucha low price and the system would never get any third party support anyway" -JasonTE Sorry Jason but 2 + 2 != 5. A tiny software library + lousy games != good thirdparty support. You can *speculate* all you want about how many hundreds ofcompanies are "actively" working on Jaguar games. The reality is that preciousfew games have been released. Hence, I am going to state here openly that atthis point in time the evidence strongly suggests that the third party supportfor the Jaguar sucks. Live with it.-----Subj: Jaguar has no 3rd party support 94-09-07 19:23:44 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineThird party support should in any intelligent analysis be a function that takestwo parameters. #1: How long has the system been available to the public? #2: How many third party titles are available? Any other formula is based on purespeculation and potentially inaccurate vendor or manufacturer claims (ie companyX states "we have 1000 active developers" but never delivers more than a trickleof finished third party games). The reality is *delivered results*. And Atarihas precious few of those. That is why the Jaguar is so friggin dead rightnow.-----Subj: Jag.. the end may be near 94-09-07 19:28:15 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineDid I mention that the Jaguar has a software library 1/10'th the size of 3DO'swith a lower average game quality? Did I mention the fact that this incredibledearth of Jaguar software has *just killed* the reputation of the machine andAtari over the past 6 months? If not, I apologize. Atari is in serioustrouble!!-----Subj: Zylo... 94-09-07 20:09:46 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Jaguar? What's that? How long has it been out? How many games does it have? How many GOOD games does it have?" - ZyloWhat does the quantity of games out for the Jaguar right now have to do withwhether or not those who said that the system would die months ago were right?Jason-----Subj: ClayCip... 94-09-07 20:10:50 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"You can *speculate* all you want about how many hundreds of companies are'actively' working on Jaguar games. The reality is that precious few games havebeen released." - ClayCipThe reality is that games in development and games released are two differentissues. There are are dozens of Jaguar games in development. That isn'tspeculation. Few games have come out so far, because most companies just signedon in recent months and of those games that have been in development for a longtime, several have been delayed over and over again by Atari for "qualitycontrol" purposes. That, too, is not speculation. A system with around 150licensees and around 100 games in development won't always get only one new gameevery few months or so.If you want to worry about a serious, long term problem which is holding asystem back, take a look at the 3DO's price tag. The Jaguar's shortage of gameswill end soon (unless you believe that 100 games in development _won't_eventually result in more games out on the shelves). The same can't necessarilybe said of the 3DO's high price tag. Those who are relentlessly bashing theJaguar, while heaping endless praise on the 3DO (Zylo, Prince99, you, andothers) are in for a rude awakening. It's so early in the game and you guyshave already predicted a complete shut-out."Hence, I am going to state here openly that at this point in time the evidencestrongly suggests that the third party support for the Jaguar sucks." - ClayCipI've spoken to and/or heard from a lot of Jaguar developers on AOL, Prodigy,Internet, the Jaguar List, and elsewhere. They strongly support the system andthey have confidence in it. 150 licensees and 100 games in development is morethan enough proof of strong third party support. If you'd like, ClayCip, I cangive you the E-mail addresses of Jeff Minter, Tim Huntsman, Jez San, ShawnGreen, and other reps from the companies that are supporting the Jaguar. They'll be more than happy to tell you what they think of the system. I'veheard from them and have even spoken with them myself in some cases, so I knowthat they have confidence in the Jaguar's future. None of them condone thecurrent lack of games for the system, but they do realize that a lot of gamesare on the way. The only thing that "sucks" here, ClayCip, is your knowledge ofthe third party support for this system and your apparent inability todifferentiate between quantity of games out and third party support.Jason-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-07 20:17:41 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>What does the quantity of games out for the Jaguar right now have to do withwhether or not those who said that the system would die months ago wereright?<<<Everything. I, and others, were 100% correct when we made our predictionsregarding the Jaguar. We predicted the 3DO would have LOADS of great games, andit does: CNB, TE, Shock Wave, SWC, RR, WOTW, etc..... We predicted that theJaguar would have VERY VERY limited software, and what would be there few, ifany, even decent games. YOU, Jason, predicted that the 3DO was "too expensivefor the average gamer" and that "CD games suck."Jason and other Jaguar supporters are trying to crawl their way out of aDEEEEEEP pit they've dug themselves. Their predictions for great things for theJaguar have not, nor will they ever, occur, while 3DO supporters like myselfhave predicted 100% correct. The price of the 3DO dropped, the # of GAMESincreased, the quality of games increased, and the 3DO has become the BESToverall gaming system in both PERFORMANCE AND VALUE. It is cheaper to buy a 3DOthan a Sega CD!!!I have been right about everything I've said, and Jason has been wrong abouteverything he's said. It's that simple. All Jasons out there: GETR.E.A.L.!!!--Zylo-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-07 20:25:03 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> "Jaguar? What's that? How long has it been out? How many games > doesit have? How many GOOD games does it have?" - Zylo > > What does thequantity of games out for the Jaguar right now have to > do with whether or notthose who said that the system would die months > ago were right? > > JasonI won't speak for others, but I personally said, quite some time ago, that theJaguar's biggest problem is that Atari produces it.In case you don't remember, the Jaguar situation *is* very similar to the Lynxsituation many months ago: Atari comes out with great hardware, has lots oflicensees signed on, promises great games. Then the Lynx titles trickle outslowly, there are distribution problems, and the great games are stillpromised.Hey -- Atari still has time to turn things around in my opinion. However uptill now they've been handling it exactly the way they handled the Lynx.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Titles 94-09-07 20:54:45 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineMan... 3DO titles are coming out faster than either I or my wallet can keep upwith!Slayer was just released, as was "Shadow War".Personally I can't wait for Slayer -- it looks AMAZING.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re: JasonTE 94-09-07 21:46:18 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"The reality is that games in development and games released are two differentissues" - JasonTEYou are right. Games "in development" often never materialize and often don'tcome close to meeting expectation. Released games are here, can be enjoyed byall, and are 10 times as abundant on the 3DO as the Jaguar. :)-----Subj: SLAYER.. anyone have it?! 94-09-07 21:49:40 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineIt looks like SSI has released a killer DOOM-like 3DO game in Slayer Earlyinternet reports indicate it has a fully texture mapped real 3D world where youcan look up and down (w/ multiple level rooms and full texturing everywhere),glass smooth frame rate, and that great Rogue/Moria style AD&D play mapped intoa great fast first person environment. An AvP killer? Quite possibly! TWOMONTHS before AvP! Gotta love that 3DO, eh?-----Subj: Re:SLAYER.. anyone have it?! 94-09-07 22:04:41 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> It looks like SSI has released a killer DOOM-like 3DO game in Slayer > Earlyinternet reports indicate it has a fully texture mapped real 3D > world whereyou can look up and down (w/ multiple level rooms and full > texturingeverywhere), glass smooth frame rate, and that great > Rogue/Moria style AD&Dplay mapped into a great fast first person > environment. An AvP killer? Quitepossibly! TWO MONTHS before AvP! > Gotta love that 3DO, eh?Well... I wouldn't compare AvP to Slayer, because Slayer has much more depth toit. It is an RPG, wheras AvP is basically a DOOM-style shoot 'em up, with a fewtwists thrown in.Personally, I'll take a Slayer/Ultima Underworld style game over a AvP/DOOMstyle game any day... but that is my personal preference.Cheers,AndrewPS looks like all of those BS argument about the 3DO not being able to doDOOM-style texture mapping is just that, BS. In fact according to the postsI've read, Slayer's engine has more flexibility than DOOM's does (crawling,looking up, down, etc.).-----Subj: Re:ACLAM... 94-09-07 22:37:00 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineWhat happened to your "national rollout in September" banter? I seem to rememberwe discussed this, and I said there was no way the Jag was going to fulfill thispromise. You said something else, however. When's the "national rollout" now?October? Or is it November? Atari should keep it zipped until they know whatthey're talking about. Ie...Checkered Flag/Tiny Toons/AvP/Kasumi Ninja/ all weresupposed to be out Mar-May. National rollout is now on it's third (at least)revised date. I wish they would stop talking and start producing, that's mybiggest beef with the JAG, and the biggest reason I'm happier with a 3DO. TK ----- Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-07 22:50:45 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>> It is cheaper to buy a 3DO than a Sega CD!!! <<<<At least cound a 3DO was $399.95. Sega-CD is $229.95, and the Sega itself is$89.95. That is 319.20 for both. In tandem with the 3DO, prices are lower ifpurchased mail order for both systems.-----Subj: Road Rash 94-09-07 22:55:35 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineI bought Road Rash recently and have been playing it for a few days now. Ithink that it's the best Jaguar/3DO game yet. There's a tremendous amount ofattention to detail in the graphics, sounds, and play mechanics. It's far andaway the best racing game I've ever played on a console system. EA has takenwhat I think is a fairly average 16-bit game and has turned it into the bestconsole racing game ever. I can't wait to see what they'll do with 3DO versionsof FIFA Soccer, NHL Hockey, and some of their other more popular 16-bit games. This is what 3DO and Jaguar games _should_ be like. It looks, sounds, _and_plays better than similar 16-bit games.Jason-----Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-07 23:38:13 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineAgreed (RR). Just got off Compuserve, and I must say the Jaguar owners there arefar more disgruntled than they are here. I hope that the delivery dates for KNand AvP in October are accurate. There are quite a few JAG owners on CIS thatwant to use their JAG's for doorsteps. Slayer for 3DO is also getting ravereviews on CIS. Didja catch my WOTW is average in that folder? Not a mindless3DO advocate as you sometimes insist, merely a happier 3DO owner/frustrated JAGowner... Glad you liked RR... IMO the only games to be rated significantlybetter than 16 bit for either platform include the following: Road Rash, T2000,Twisted, Shockwave (though a little hesitant about it...) TE, and SWC. Note thatI include TE and Shockwave because their structure and texture maps couldn't behandled by SNES or Genesis-I am not neccessarily impressed by either of these.64/32 bit games that could've been done on 16 bit but are still decent include:Raiden (old, but not bad), Dino Dudes (cute), JMF, The Horde (maybe it could'vebeen done on Sega CD), WOTW, OOTW, and Wolf 3D. Notable exception AITD, butit's old and slow. Notable disasters for both: MDM, Crescent Galaxy, Cybermorph,JPI, BSF, and the soon to be released Shadow which I've heard is worse than JPI.Forgot EFMM-sound lifts it above 16 bit.Random thoughts. BTW- posts as of Sept 1 on CIS Atari Jag: 11 Topics/129messages. 3DO 72 Topics/312 messages. 75% of Jag topics were bickering andbitching. 90% of topics on 3DO were new games and discussions. Atari needs tomove, quickly, with their next generation games. Even staunch JAG defenders arelosing thier patience. I _sincerely_ hope that Atari doesn't pull another LYNX.I also hope your eternal optimism is rewarded. TK-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-07 23:48:14 EDT From: Thom21Posted on: America Online"It is cheaper to buy a 3DO than a Sega CD" - zyloI am a 3DO, Sega CD, and Jag plus a few other systems owner and as I recall, Ipaid MUCH more for my 3DO than sega cd. Even with the price drop a the sega cd +genesis = ~$300 while the 3DO is around ~$400.The whole debate of 3DO vs. Jaguar is quite funny as neither of these systemsare proven market leaders to date. The 3DO is a little ahead of the Jaguar asfar as quality software, but this has only started to occur during the last 3months. The 3DO has been out slightly longer. As I have said before and willsay again till I'm blue in the face, there won't be a clear leader until afterChristmas and both systems have the potential to unseat both Sega and Nintendo. The debate should be 3DO & Jaguar vs. Sega & Nintendo.Thom-----Subj: Zylo... 94-09-08 00:01:04 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"YOU, Jason, predicted that the 3DO was 'too expensive for the average gamer'and that 'CD games suck.'" - ZyloAbsolute lie."Their predictions for great things for the Jaguar have not, nor will they ever,occur, while 3DO supporters like myself have predicted 100% correct." - ZyloNothing more than wishful thinking on your part."The price of the 3DO dropped, the # of GAMES increased, the quality of gamesincreased" - ZyloAll of which everybody expected to happen. I have yet to see a system which hasgone up in price, has lost games, and has dropped in terms of game quality astime progressed."It is cheaper to buy a 3DO than a Sega CD!!!" - Zylo*SIGH*. Why do you consistently say things that are blatantly wrong? The SegaCD costs around $220 and the Genesis costs around $80 the last time I checked. That's $300 for both - $100 less than the 3DO. Then again, you're the guy who,within a couple of months or so of the 3DO's release, claimed that the 3DO was"almost as popular as the Genesis"."I have been right about everything I've said, and Jason has been wrong abouteverything he's said. It's that simple." - ZyloAgain, nothing more than wishful thinking on your part. As I said before, it'svery early in the game and you and some others (Prince99, ClayCip, etc.) havepredicted a complete shut-out. You've set yourself up to look bad if the 3DOdoesn't come out far ahead of the Jaguar in the long run. We'll see what youhave to say about the Jaguar when AVP, Kasumi Ninja, and some of the otherupcoming games are released. Time is certainly working against you. Will youdisappear from the forum again when AVP is released? I'm disappointed by howlong it's taking for the games in development for the Jaguar to make it to storeshelves, but I still expect the Jaguar to come out ahead of the 3DO over thelong run. For now, enjoy bashing the system. The Jaguar's time will come andthose who are endlessly bashing the system, such as yourself, are only settingthemselves up to look bad in the near future.Jason----- Subj: the Lynx and the Jaguar 94-09-08 00:01:59 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"In case you don't remember, the Jaguar situation *is* very similar to the Lynxsituation many months ago: Atari comes out with great hardware, has lots oflicensees signed on, promises great games." - AndrewWelcDid the Lynx ever have anything close to 150 licensees and 100 games indevelopment? Was the Lynx carried by all of the stores that carry the Jaguarand was it marketed in the same way in which the Jag has been marketed? I couldgo on, but there obviously are quite a few significant differences between theLynx and the Jaguar, not the least of which is ~150 licensees and ~100 games indevelopment. There are some initial similarities between the two systems, butthe differences are more significant.Jason ----- Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-08 00:02:00 EDT From: GAMER7Posted on: America Online>>> 64/32 bit games that could've been done on 16 bit but are still decentinclude: Raiden (old, but not bad), Dino Dudes (cute), JMF, The Horde (maybe itcould've been done on Sega CD), WOTW, OOTW, and Wolf 3D <<<You can't seriously believe that John Madden on 3do or WOTW could have been doneon 16 bit, theres tons of stuff that they couldn't dream of putting on acartridge & if you're thinking Sega CD look at Joe Mont on Sega CD & compare toJMF on 3DO. What has Sega CD done even close to WAY? Compare Wolfenstein on theJag to the SNES version! Think again. Gamer7/Dhalsim ----- Subj: Re:the Lynx and the Jaguar 94-09-08 00:36:54 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> Did the Lynx ever have anything close to 150 licensees and 100 > games indevelopment?The claims weren't quite that high, but they were up there.> Was the Lynx carried by all of the stores > that carry the Jaguar and was itmarketed in the same way in which > the Jag has been marketed?Ah Jason -- the Lynx was carried in more places. Software, Etc. used to carrythem, but they don't carry the Jaguar because Atari hasn't bought back a wholeslew of unsold Atari products.Toys R Us is carrying the Jaguar in a few select areas -- other than that, namea chain that is carrying the Jaguar but did not carry the Lynx.> I could go on, but there obviously are > quite a few significant differencesbetween the Lynx and the Jaguar, > not the least of which is ~150 licensees and~100 games in > development. There are some initial similarities between thetwo > systems, but the differences are more significant.I see far more similarities at this point than differences:-- Good hardware -- Poor distribution -- Production problems -- Limited gameavailability -- Lots of hype for upcoming gamesI'll grant you that if Atari comes out with 100 games in the next 6 months, thesituation will be different than it was for the Lynx.However up 'till this point, I have yet to see anything of substance thatdifferentiates the Jaguar from the Lynx.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:the Lynx and the Jaguar 94-09-08 00:38:49 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 writes:> Did the Lynx ever have anything close to 150 licensees and 100 > games indevelopment?Oh by the way, a Jaguar developer on the Internet posted that not everyonelisted as a Jaguar licensee (the 150 you keep talking about) has a game underdevelopment, or even has a Jaguar development station.This concurs with what I've been saying all along; I can find the post if youfeel the need.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-08 00:57:50 EDT From: Waaargh Posted on: America OnlineJason,Glad you enjoy Road Rash. If you recall, we discussed it briefly a few monthsago and most of the features we agreed would make it a better game have beenincluded. Definite favorite of mine -- too bad it ranks low on originality. Hopefully the slew of games predicted to come out by Christmas will changethings.Waaargh!BTW: If you haven't returned WOTW yet, give it another chance. I felt much likeyou did about it (except on the bouncing floor bit) and almost returned itmyself until I gave the versus mode a chance. It's much better against a humanopponent.-----Subj: Re:ClayCip... 94-09-08 01:00:01 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>Few games have come out so far, because most companies just signed on inrecent months and of those games that have been in development for a long time,several have been delayed over and over again by Atari for "quality control"purposes.<<<It would make more sense for Atari to delay the JAGUAR for "quality control"... Permanently!!!--Zylo-----Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-08 01:00:30 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> I bought Road Rash recently and have been playing it for a few days now. I think that it's the best Jaguar/3DO game yet. There's a tremendous amount ofattention to detail in the graphics, sounds, and play mechanics. It's far andaway the best racing game I've ever played on a console system. - Jason <<<Hi Jason, welcome back!I agree with these comments about Road Rash 100%...-----Subj: Re:ClayCip... 94-09-08 01:02:33 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>If you want to worry about a serious, long term problem which is holding asystem back, take a look at the 3DO's price tag.<<<Jaguar = $250 3DO = $300$Jaguar == $3DO 3DO >= JaguarGet R.E.A.L.!!! (I love saying that)--Zylo-----Subj: Re:Titles 94-09-08 01:04:58 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>Man... 3DO titles are coming out faster than either I or my wallet can keepup with!Slayer was just released, as was "Shadow War".Personally I can't wait for Slayer -- it looks AMAZING.Cheers,Andrew<<<@#$!@$#$!~~!!!!Why the !@#!@ do all these great games have to come out at the sametime?!>!>!>!>?!??!? I'm almost broke from these fabulous titles!!!JAGUAR FOR SALE WITH 3 GAMES!!!!!!!! EMAIL ZYLO!!! Will accept highest offer.--Zylo-----Subj: Shadow: WOS 94-09-08 01:06:57 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> and the soon to be released Shadow which I've heard is worse than JPI. -TK3DO <<<Tom, I've talked to people who have actually played the game and there is noconsensus on it's quality. One person liked it much better than WOTW because ofit's mortal kombat style controls, one disliked it very much and said it was avery very poor fighting game... I'll try it before I buy it. I find itinteresting to note that 3DO is supporting this title by putting it on theSampler 2 disc along with WOTW.I also find that i am willing to give Tribeca the benefit of the doubt. Thistitle is coming out of nowhere, but then isn't that the beauty of 3DO...Aclam, any chance we might see PO'd on the Sampler 3 disc due in early December?-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-08 01:10:05 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> The 3DO is a little ahead of the Jaguar as far as quality software, butthis has only started to occur during the last 3 months. - Thom21 <<<I disagree. 3DO has had many quality titles out for far more than 3 months. 3DOis a long way ahead of Jaguar in the quality software department.>>>The debate should be 3DO & Jaguar vs. Sega & Nintendo.- Thom21 <<<Amen to that...-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-08 01:11:46 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> I have yet to see a system which has gone up in price, has lost games, andhas dropped in terms of game quality as time progressed. - Jason <<<Ummm... how about Pioneer Laseractive. It meets all the above criteria. Even aprice increase...-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-08 01:15:55 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>"YOU, Jason, predicted that the 3DO was 'too expensive for the average gamer'and that 'CD games suck.'" - ZyloAbsolute lie.<<<Sure, Jason, whatever you say. Anyone who was reading posts about 7 months agoknows the truth...>>> All of which everybody expected to happen. I have yet to see a system whichhas gone up in price, has lost games, and has dropped in terms of game qualityas time progressed. <<<I'll give you a hint: It starts with a "J" and ends with an "r." And in themiddle is "agua." (boy, you just walked into that one)>>>*SIGH*. Why do you consistently say things that are blatantly wrong? TheSega CD costs around $220 and the Genesis costs around $80 the last time Ichecked. That's $300 for both - $100 less than the 3DO. <<<The price for Sega CD I cited was $270 and the Genesis was $99 that I checked. $369 is the total that I got, and I guess you haven't heard about the 3DO pricedrop, have you?>>>Then again, you're the guy who, within a couple of months or so of the 3DO'srelease, claimed that the 3DO was "almost as popular as the Genesis".<<<No need to bring up all my previous wisdom, Jason. Let's focus on how right Iam in the HERE AND NOW!!! :-)>>>Again, nothing more than wishful thinking on your part. As I said before,it's very early in the game<<<WRONG!!! It's the third quarter and the Jaguar's knee is being twisted rightout of its socket. This system is DOWN AND OUT, for good.>>>I'm disappointed by how long it's taking for the games in development for theJaguar to make it to store shelves, but I still expect the Jaguar to come outahead of the 3DO over the long run.<<<HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You're always good for a laugh, Jason. The Jaguar costsroughly the same as the Jaguar, has no games, and the games that are out areutterly unplayable. You make the call...>>>For now, enjoy bashing the system. The Jaguar's time will come and those whoare endlessly bashing the system, such as yourself, are only setting themselvesup to look bad in the near future.<<<Still holding on to that "world is flat" fetish, eh? Oh well, enjoy your flatworld while all of us are enjoying the R.E.A.L. world!!!--Zylo-----Subj: Re:the Lynx and the Jaguar>>> 94-09-08 01:17:23 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>Ah Jason -- the Lynx was carried in more places. Software, Etc. used tocarry them, but they don't carry the Jaguar because Atari hasn't bought back awhole slew of unsold Atari products.<<<Of course not. Where's Atari going to get the money, from BOOMING Jaguarsales???--Zylo-----Subj: Regarding Atari's software suppt 94-09-08 02:26:30 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America OnlineI just thought of this....It was claimed in the press not long ago (in that dreaded Wall Street Journalarticle) that some of 3DO's software support had pulled back because theplatform had not performed to expectation. None of the big names admitted tothis, but it might be reasonable to assume that some others had dropped by thewayside (we can point to some examples like Red Baron and a couple of othersthat have been scrapped). Now that 3DO has picked up some, we can assume thatthe support has probably stabilized some, and maybe even picked up.Can we extrapolate from this that based on Jag's current performance (which hasfailed to meet expectations), that some of its software support (the smallernames) may have pulled back? Also, because 3DO is picking up, the rate thatAtari support is scaling back to commit resources to 3DO might be picking up aswell?THis is all speculation...just offering it as food for thought....-----Subj: Re:ClayCip... 94-09-08 02:31:16 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>If you want to worry about a serious, long term problem which is holding asystem back, take a look at the 3DO's price tag. The Jaguar's shortage of gameswill end soon (unless you believe that 100 games in development _won't_eventually result in more games out on the shelves).<<<Just as it is hard to say what rate Atari games will come out, it is also justas hard to predict the rate at which 3DO price will drop. Jason, you have saidmany times that you have been impressed by the rate at which 3DO's price hasdropped. In a market with increasing number of competitors and a wideningconsumer base (remember, Europe hasn't been officially introduced to the 3DO),the price drop rate can be sustained for a while. Based on TRACK RECORD, Iwould say that 3DO's price tag issue will go away sooner than Atari's softwaredrought. This is also based on my perception of game development and thetimeframes involved in getting quality technically leading edge gamescompleted...-----Subj: Re:Shadow: WOS 94-09-08 02:38:43 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Aclam, any chance we might see PO'd on the Sampler 3 disc due in earlyDecember ?<<<Unfortunately no. However, there's a decent chance we'll be at WCES in earlyJanuary....-----Subj: Re:Regarding Atari's software su 94-09-08 03:34:01 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> Can we extrapolate from this that based on Jag's current performance > (whichhas failed to meet expectations), that some of its software > support (thesmaller names) may have pulled back? Also, because 3DO > is picking up, therate that Atari support is scaling back to commit > resources to 3DO might bepicking up as well? > > THis is all speculation...just offering it as food forthought....That all does make sense, but it is speculation as you said.Another difference is that Atari Corp. is paying to have a number of theupcoming titles done (AvP, Club Drive, etc.) whereas 3DO was completely at themercy of 3rd party developers.Andrew-----Subj: Lynx/Jaguar 94-09-08 12:54:45 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"> Did the Lynx ever have anything close to 150 licensees and 100 > gamesin development?The claims weren't quite that high, but they were up there." - AndreWelcAgain, I don't think that the Lynx has ever had anywhere close to 150 licenseesand 100 games in development. Do you have any numbers on licensees or games indevelopment for the Lynx, Andrew? It's been a while since I've heard anynumbers on the Lynx.Did the Lynx have big-name licensees, such as Accolade, Bally/Midway, Argonaut,Virgin, Interplay, Sunsoft, etc.?"Ah Jason -- the Lynx was carried in more places. Software, Etc. used to carrythem, but they don't carry the Jaguar because Atari hasn't bought back a wholeslew of unsold Atari products." - AndrewWelcAgain, do you have any numbers on this? Software Etc. alone does not constitute"more places". A lot of stores carry the Jaguar, some of which I don't recallcarrying the Lynx."Toys R Us is carrying the Jaguar in a few select areas -- other than that, namea chain that is carrying the Jaguar but did not carry the Lynx." - AndrewWelcI don't know which stores are carrying which items in each area of the country,but I don't believe that Wal Mart or Video Game Exchange carried the Lynx(although VGE bought used Lynx games from customers for a little while, Ibelieve). There are other stores that carry the Jag, but I don't know whetheror not they carried the Lynx (Dial Electronics, for example). Admittedly, thisissue is hard to discuss, since what certain stores do and don't carry variesfrom one area to the next."However up 'till this point, I have yet to see anything of substance thatdifferentiates the Jaguar from the Lynx." - AndrewWelcLicensee support, quantity of games in development, advertising, format, andseveral other key factors are different. Of course, the competition and thestate of the market are different as well. Yes, the distribution problems andthe lack of games are similar between the two systems, but the differences aremore significant than the few similarities. You're using a few basicsimilarities to suggest that the Jaguar is just the Lynx all over again,ignoring some obvious differences between the two systems. The differences incompetition and the state of the market alone are enough to separate thesystems, but when you also consider that the format, licensee support, and gamesin development are different, the Jaguar is clearly not a repeat of the Lynx.Jason-----Subj: Waaargh... 94-09-08 12:55:19 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"If you haven't returned WOTW yet, give it another chance. I felt much like youdid about it (except on the bouncing floor bit) and almost returned it myselfuntil I gave the versus mode a chance. It's much better against a humanopponent." - WaaarghI owned WOTW for around a week and a half. I put in several hours of playingtime, both against the computer and against another player.Jason-----Subj: KRRvision... 94-09-08 12:56:23 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online">>> I have yet to see a system which has gone up in price, has lost games, andhas dropped in terms of game quality as time progressed. - Jason <<<Ummm... how about Pioneer Laseractive. It meets all the above criteria." -KRRvisionI seriously doubt that the LaserActive has _lost_ games since it came out,Keith. :) As far as game quality is concerned, I wouldn't know. I've neverplayed any LaserActive games.In any case, the point is that _everybody_ expected the 3DO to go down in price,get more games, and get better quality games. The "predictions" that Zylo madewere that the Jaguar would die and that the 3DO would come out ahead of theJaguar in the long run. Neither prediction has yet come true. As I saidbefore, the quantity and quality of games out in September of '94 is not thedeciding factor for which system will come out ahead in the long run. Zylo (andothers, such as Prince99 and ClayCip) are determining the fate of each systembased on the quantity of games that are available for each one right now. I'msaying that it's far too early to declare either system successful orunsuccessful. It's easy to bash the Jaguar when it only has seven games andit's most anticipated games (AVP, Kasumi Ninja, DOOM, etc.) have yet to bereleased. Most of the Jaguar's games are still in development, so the system isvery vulnerable to criticism (which turns out to be bashing, not legitimatecriticism, in most cases). This also means that people like Zylo and Prince99can take this opportunity to spread all kinds of misinformation about the system("it's dead", "there's no third party support", etc.). We'll see what Zylo,Prince99, and the like have to say when AVP and other games are eventuallyreleased. Time is certainly working against them as these games get closer tocompletion.Jason-----Subj: Zylo... 94-09-08 12:57:13 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"I have yet to see a system which has gone up in price, has lost games, and hasdropped in terms of game quality as time progressed. <<<I'll give you a hint: It starts with a 'J' and ends with an 'r.' And in themiddle is 'agua.'" - ZyloThe amount of misinformation you spread is unbelievable. In less than a day,you've managed to claim that the 3DO is less expensive than the Sega CD and thatthe Jaguar has gone up in price and has lost games since it was released. Doyou think about what you're saying before posting messages or do you just spewout the first trash that comes to mind?"No need to bring up all my previous wisdom, Jason. Let's focus on how right Iam in the HERE AND NOW!!!" - ZyloYou didn't have your facts straight in the past and you don't have your factsstraight now either. Sadly, your reasoning is just as asinine as it's alwaysbeen. A few months out of the debate hasn't done a _thing_ to improve yourgrasp of reality. Even Prince99 would be unlikely to claim that the 3DO isalmost as popular as the Genesis, that the 3DO costs less than the Sega CD, thatthe Jaguar has gone up in price and has lost games since its release, etc. You're one of the few people who actually makes Prince99 look reasonable attimes.Jason-----Subj: the Jag's supposed death 94-09-08 12:59:18 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"This system is DOWN AND OUT, for good." - ZyloYou'd better inform Virgin, Tradewest, Beyond Games, and all of the othercompanies that are actively developing for the Jaguar, then. The gaming mediaseems to be unaware of the Jaguar's death as well, as are EB, Babbage's, DialElectronics, Captron G&G, and the other stores that still carry the system. Even more so, somebody should let Atari know that the system is "down and outfor good" before they put AVP and Kasumi Ninja into production.Clearly, you have no basis for what you're saying, Zylo."The Jaguar costs roughly the same as the Jaguar, has no games, and the gamesthat are out are utterly unplayable. You make the call..." - Zylo$400 is "roughly the same as" $250?As far as quantity and quality of games is concerned, the Jaguar is indeed inpoor shape right now. Nobody is disputing that. What's being disputed iswhether or not the Jaguar should be written off because of how few games are outat this time. You're ignoring the fact that this system has ~150 licensees and~100 games in development.Jason-----Subj: ACLAM... 94-09-08 12:59:56 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Based on TRACK RECORD, I would say that 3DO's price tag issue will go awaysooner than Atari's software drought." - ACLAMWhat track record do the Jaguar's licensees have, most of whom just signed on inrecent months? Your theory would apply only to games handled by Atari itself. Such games are a small minority of those that are in development for thesystem.Jason-----Subj: Just a _tad_ too much... 94-09-08 13:26:42 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineIn just the last few days, we've heard the following in this folder:- The Jaguar is dead. - The 3DO _is_ (as in present tense) "the ultimatesystem". - The 3DO costs less than the Sega CD. - The $400 3DO costs about thesame as the $250 Jaguar. - The Jaguar has gone up in price and has lost gamessince its release. - The Jaguar has no/almost no third party support. - There isno chance of the Jaguar having a future.All of the above, and more, have been stated by various people in this folder inrecent days. I rest my case that Jaguar bashing and 3DO overhype have gotten_WAY_ out of hand.Jason-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-08 14:24:32 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>>The price for Sega CD I cited was $270 and the Genesis was $99 that Ichecked. $369 is the total that I got, and I guess you haven't heard about the3DO price drop, have you?<<<<You're wrong, Zylo. You can walk into any local retail game store (EB, SoftwareEtc..., Babbages), and all of them have Sega-CD's for $229.95, and Genesis unitsfor $89.95. If you want even better prices, go mail order where I've seen themfor $209.95 and $79.95. Yes, the 3DO has dropped to $399.95, but it is still $90away from the Genesis/CD combo. The strong point here, though, is that Genesisowners have the option. They can enjoy copious amounts of gaming for $89.95,where as a 3DO owner has to bite the whole bullet to play.-----Subj: The tilde. 94-09-08 16:41:44 EDT From: Prince99 Posted on: America OnlineHey Spaniards lets use the tilde! All this crap about hundreds of Jag games indevelopment is bogus. The only games that will be out for the Jag by Christmasare: AvP, Club Drive (endless endless crap), Checkered Flag II, Kasumi Ninja,Doom, World Class Cricket, Ultimate Braingames, and a few others. Over onProdigy, the 3DO current game/release soon list is up to 9 parts, courtesy ofMichael Delaney.You all talk about Jag games overflowing the market, sooner or later... but thefact is that 3DO games are coming in at 3/4 games per week and it's notscheduled to stop. You say Jag games will improve? So will 3DO's... The SAFE,and BEST investment is 3DO... lots of great games, lots of new games, lots ofsupport, lots of screenshots of upcoming games, 3 games + sampler with thesystem, 64 bit add on, MPEG adaptor, and more... Slayer just came out and it'shot... Soccer Kid is due out this week, and both Burning Soldier, and theAWESOME GUARDIAN WAR is due Sept. 15th. Star Control II is also scheduled forthe end of this month. Don't talk about the Jag games in November! 3DO will have3x the amount of games.Don't talk about this, that, what when or how, talk about the freaks doin'everything they wanna do now!-----Subj: Re:Waaargh... 94-09-08 17:50:26 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>I owned WOTW for around a week and a half. I put in several hours of playingtime, both against the computer and against another player.<<<A week and a half and only several hours of playing? That's like 15 minutes aday, certainly not enough time for WOTW to become really enjoyable. It took meabout 5 hours of playing just for the controls to be second nature. Now it'sbetter than any other fighting game I've ever played.--Zylo-----Subj: Re:Just a _tad_ too much... 94-09-08 17:59:07 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>> - The Jaguar is dead. - The 3DO _is_ (as in present tense) "the ultimatesystem". - The 3DO costs less than the Sega CD. - The $400 3DO costs about thesame as the $250 Jaguar. - The Jaguar has gone up in price and has lost gamessince its release. - The Jaguar has no/almost no third party support. - There isno chance of the Jaguar having a future.<<<1. True. 2. True. 3. It IS cheaper to buy a 3DO at the lowered price of $300than it is to buy a Sega Genesis (most systems) with a Sega CD. 4. True, whenyou take into account the lowered 3DO price of $300. 5. When you take intoaccount that all other systems have dropped in price, ESPECIALLY the 3DO, it'sas if the Jaguar has gone up in price. $250 seems like a LOT more now that itdid when the 3DO was $700. 6. True. 7. True.>>> I rest my case that Jaguar bashing and 3DO overhype have gotten _WAY_ out ofhand.<<<The reason people are excited about the 3DO is because of its lower pirce,abundant quality software, and its fabulous third party support, NOT, as yousuggest, Jason, to "spread misinformation" or "bash" systems. It's the truth,Jason... Find the WAY!!!--Zylo-----Subj: Good 3DO and Jag news !!! 94-09-08 18:25:28 EDT From: Thom21Posted on: America OnlineHello fellow 3DO and Jag owners (greeting for 3DO owners)Hello fellow Jag and 3DO owners (greeting for Jag owners)There now that I've protected myself from any radicals out there here's thenews.Slayer is AWESOME for 3DO !!!!!!!!!Jaguar will be in appearing in Toy's R Us outside of the CA and NY test marketsin the next 2 weeks. It should be in all stores by the first or second week ofOctober.AVP is still promised out for the first week or at LATEST 2nd week of October,and the nationwide commercials will begin with AVP's release.If all transpires as promised by Atari then the Jaguar will finally have more ofa fighting chance. Just remember how many Genesis with Altered beast were soldits first Christmas. This could really be good news. BTW I know that this isthe 2nd Christmas for the Jag....but most of us couldn't buy one the firstChristmas so lets pretend......Disclaimer............Disclaimer..........Disclaimer.......... All informationprovided by Atari Cust. Service so take it with a grain of salt or two orthree........-----Subj: Re:Sega Prices 94-09-08 19:37:57 EDT From: Loudness Posted on: America OnlineZylo, I think you are a little confused. The Panasonic FZ-1 recently droppedfrom an SRP of $499.00 to $399.00, and NOT to $300.00. It is, of course, still amuch better value than the Jaguar at any price IMHO.As to the price comparisons of 3DO vs. Genesis/SegaCD, how about the Sega CD-X? The CD-X is the portable, integrated Genesis/SegaCD unit, and it still sells for$399.00 at most chain stores. Can you imagine anyone paying as much for the CD-Xas a 3DO?BTW: I picked up Slayer at EB yesterday, and played it for nearly 7 hourswithout a break. All I can say right now is: INCREDIBLE!!! I'll post a review inthe Slayer folder in the 3DO area tomorrow, after I get some more play time, andmaybe a little sleep...Jay Cann a.k.a. Loudness-----Subj: Re:Lynx/Jaguar 94-09-08 20:02:45 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Again, do you have any numbers on this? Software Etc. alone does notconstitute "more places".<<<Software Etc. is one of the 3 largest chains of video game carriers in thecountry, I believe. Of approximately 2200 retail outlets controlled by the top18 chain-store companies, Software Etc owns appoximately 300-350 of them (around15%). This is pretty significant.-----Subj: Re:KRRvision... 94-09-08 20:05:41 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>I seriously doubt that the LaserActive has _lost_ games since it came out,Keith. :) As far as game quality is concerned, I wouldn't know. I've neverplayed any LaserActive games. <<<Actually, the life of a video game is about 1 year. This means that after thatyear, most companies won't manufacture anymore (1 year will vary with thesuccess of the game...). Once the ones on the store shelves run out, the gameis no longer available. You often see these in the "Discount" sections of videogame stores. The music/record industry used to call them "cut-outs".So yes, a platform can "lose" games.-----Subj: Zylo... 94-09-08 20:27:56 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online">>> - The Jaguar is dead. - The 3DO _is_ (as in present tense) "the ultimatesystem". - The 3DO costs less than the Sega CD. - The $400 3DO costs about thesame as the $250 Jaguar. - The Jaguar has gone up in price and has lost gamessince its release. - The Jaguar has no/almost no third party support. - There isno chance of the Jaguar having a future.<<<1. True. 2. True. 3. It IS cheaper to buy a 3DO at the lowered price of $300than it is to buy a Sega Genesis (most systems) with a Sega CD. 4. True, whenyou take into account the lowered 3DO price of $300. 5. When you take intoaccount that all other systems have dropped in price, ESPECIALLY the 3DO, it'sas if the Jaguar has gone up in price. $250 seems like a LOT more now that itdid when the 3DO was $700. 6. True. 7. True." - ZyloNeed I say more about how unreasonable Zylo is?My favorite is the one about how "it's as if the Jaguar has gone up in price"because every other system (according to him) has gone down in price. As I saidbefore, Zylo is one of the few people who actually makes Prince99 lookreasonable at times."The reason people are excited about the 3DO is because of its lower pirce,abundant quality software, and its fabulous third party support, NOT, as yousuggest, Jason, to 'spread misinformation' or 'bash' systems. It's the truth,Jason... Find the WAY!!!" - ZyloI don't have a problem with people being excited about the 3DO. I'm excitedabout the 3DO myself. I have a problem with people spreading misinformationabout the Jaguar, which you, Prince99, and others do regularly.Jason----- Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-08 21:04:08 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineOmit the useless FMV from both games, and you could do either on SNES orGenesis. Look at MKII and Madden '94TK ----- Subj: Re:Shadow: WOS 94-09-08 21:06:47 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineJust got Slayer, and I must say...VERY good.Awesome, in fact.TK ----- Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-08 21:12:54 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"Omit the useless FMV from both games, and you could do either on SNES orGenesis. Look at MKII and Madden '94" - TK3DOFORUMPlease learn something about computer graphics and the difficulty of renderingtexture mapped 3D polygons (like the background in WOTW or the stadium inMadden) before spreading this misinformation. Factually you are dead wrong onthis. The Genesis and SNES can hardly do solid fill polygons without acoprocessor in the cartridge. Beyond the grainy horrible mode 7, SNES hasdemonstrated no ability to even come close to what we see graphically in WOTW,Road Rash, or Madden. Heck a comparison of 16 bit RR to 32 bit RR offers clearevidence of 3DO's massive superiority. And don't tell me EA "held back" on thelatest incarnation of the RR engine (Skitchin) on the 16 bit platforms. Theyclearly did not.-----Subj: ACLAM... 94-09-08 21:22:40 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"So yes, a platform can 'lose' games." - ACLAMI realize that, ACLAM, but the point here is that everybody, or nearlyeverybody, expected the 3DO to get more games as time went on. Zylo wasn'talone in expecting the 3DO's quantity of games to continually grow.Jason-----Subj: Primal Rage to rescue Jaguar 94-09-08 21:23:04 EDT From: Thom21Posted on: America OnlineGame Players will begin offering full coverage of Jaguar and 3DO starting inNovember. In their October issue there is a brief news clip that states thatAtari has begun work on PRIMAL RAGE for Jag.Since this one was made by atari using the Jag engine, I am hoping Atari is ableto make whatever changes are necessary and get it out of the gate beforeChristmas. This one would really sell systems !!!!!Thom-----Subj: the Jaguar 94-09-08 21:23:14 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineIf the Jaguar is dead or is on the brink of death, as some people in this folderhave suggested, then why would Toys R Us be planning to start carrying thesystem nationwide within the next few weeks? Why do Babbage's, EB, Captron G&G,Dial Electronics, and a lot of other stores still carry the system? Why dodozens of third party companies continue to actively develop for the system? Why have we heard nothing of the system dying from the gaming media? As I'vesaid before, it's only in online areas that 3DO owners participate in that theJaguar is said to be dead or dying. Outside of online services, there's a farmore optimistic, realistic view of the Jaguar.Jason-----Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-08 21:24:14 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineNever mentioned Road Rash as being capable of being done on the SNES or theGenesis. Omit the >USELESS< texture mapping in John Madden and you have a 16 bitgame. It feels like the SNES and Genesis version except it's AI is >MUCH<easier. While the backgrounds in WOTW could not have been done on the eitherplatform, the actual game and game play could've been manufactured for either.Next you'll tell me that because WOTW and JMF have CD quality music that theyalso couldn't have been done on either platform. You took my quote FAR toliterally, as my intention was to point out that if any company decided tomanufacture these games for 16 bit platforms, they would've been able to make agame very close to the 3DO original. No misinformation here, just fact.TK ----- Subj: Re:Sega Prices 94-09-08 21:39:47 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>Zylo, I think you are a little confused. The Panasonic FZ-1 recently droppedfrom an SRP of $499.00 to $399.00, and NOT to $300.00. It is, of course, still amuch better value than the Jaguar at any price IMHO.<<<I was referring to the 3DO newsleter that states "...and with the 3DO's priceexpected to dip below $300 early next year..."--Zylo-----Subj: Re:the Jaguar 94-09-08 21:43:04 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>Why have we heard nothing of the system dying from the gaming media?<<<How long has it been since we saw any Jaguar reviews in mags? And why hasnearly every magazine dropped its Jaguar section? And Game Fan's last JaguarZone was more out of pity than actual interest in the system.--Zylo-----Subj: Re:Lynx/Jaguar 94-09-08 21:59:31 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 writes:> Licensee support, quantity of games in development, > advertising,format, and several other key factors are different.You just made my point: up until now, we haven't seen squat in terms of licenseesupport--we've seen 7 games.Games in development is another point: we've seen exactly 30 or so games,including the existing ones, on display.Atari is *saying* they've got great licensee support, and great games. But asof yet, neither has come to fruition.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Zylo--facts not fiction please 94-09-08 22:03:49 EDT From: Thom21Posted on: America Online"Why has nearly every magazine dropped its Jaguar section?" "Game Fans lastJaguar Zone was more out of pity than interest in the system." ---ZyloIf your going to bash the Jag you have that right, but please stick to thefacts. The september issue of gamefan had 5pages of Jaguar CES coverage. If youhad read the article you would have noticed that the games mentioned were newgames not discussed before with a couple exceptions. You would also havenoticed that Diehard GameFan remains committed to the best Jaguar coveragearound. The september issue of Gamepro had a wolfenstein review that rated thegame as excellant. The August /Sept issue of Game informer had a large Jagsection. Game Players which has remained almost exclusively Sega and nintendowill begin covering both Jaguar and 3DO. While EGM and Video Games and CEhaven't had much info they have had some Jag updates as well. None of the gamemags have abandoned any new system (especially Jag) to date except amiga (sincecommordore went under) so please don't continue to spread false info. You couldcome up with much more constructive arguments to support either 3DO or Jag byjust using the facts with no exagerations thrown in.Thom-----Subj: Re:the Jaguar 94-09-08 22:03:50 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 writes:> If the Jaguar is dead or is on the brink of death, as some > people inthis folder have suggested, then why would Toys R Us be > planning to startcarrying the system nationwide within the next few > weeks? Why do Babbage's,EB, Captron G&G, Dial Electronics, and a > lot of other stores still carry thesystem? Why do dozens of third > party companies continue to actively developfor the system? Why > have we heard nothing of the system dying from the gamingmedia? As > I've said before, it's only in online areas that 3DO owners >participate in that the Jaguar is said to be dead or dying. Outside > of onlineservices, there's a far more optimistic, realistic view of > the Jaguar.Not in my experience. From the people I've talk to who aren't "plugged in",they either have never heard of Atari/Jaguar, or they have seen it's patheticdisplay of 5-7 games in EB and dismissed it. They haven't heard of the "greatupcoming titles" or the "strong licensee support".Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Lynx Comparison Not Valid 94-09-08 23:40:06 EDT From: JBBJRPosted on: America Online"In case you don't remember, the Jaguar situation *is* very similar to the Lynxsituation many months ago"Andrew, I don't think the comparison wih the Lynx is fair. The Lynx never hadthird party support because Atari did not have a console system at the time tocompete for the big games with Nin and Seg. (They were going to have the 32-bitPanther, but stopped it when the 64-bit Jag was within reach). Still, theyreleased 70+ games for it and gave a lot of fun and sold, well I'm not sure whatthey sold, I thought around a million, including foreign sales.-----Subj: Slim pickens 94-09-08 23:47:41 EDT From: Hardman19 Posted on: America OnlineFor validation - I own both systems"Well sports fans "(Shockwave) I think the drought just might be too much forsome of our farmers in the area :)In other words it seems some have given up on the Jaguar. I can't say I blameyou, I am also a little miffed at the poor selection and current status of Atarigames. Both systems have been out since November 93 and still only 6 Jag gameswhile 3DO hovers around 50..My advice, anyone remember Houston vs Buffalo (sorryOiler fans). I agree the 3DO is currently THE system to own. It is red hot, insales, stock market, and most imporatant customer satisfaction. I tend to agreeand I jump on the 3DO bandwagon, but that doesn't mean I think the Jag is dead.Personally I'm going to wait for AvP. For me that is the tell tale. I believe(borderline hope) AvP will justify the purchase of a Jaguar, it will be thatgood....JUST SHIP THE DAMN THING :) If AvP can do for the Jag what Road Rash andSlayer are doing for the 3DO, Christmas will be a ton of fun. I have to throwthis in.. Way of the Warrior is still my favorite game.......regardless, I knowthe Way : have fun gaming-----Subj: Re:Lynx/Jaguar 94-09-08 23:48:07 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineJason,Where the heck did you dig up that TRU was going to support the Jaguarnationwide in the next couple of weeks? I called my local store and they haveno plans whatsoever to sell the Jaguar anytime *this Christmas*. Hardly a grandnational support of the Jag.. Where do you get your facts!?!-----Subj: Zylo... 94-09-08 23:57:24 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"I was referring to the 3DO newsleter that states '...and with the 3DO's priceexpected to dip below $300 early next year...'" - ZyloWhy do you keep shooting yourself in the foot?Jason-----Subj: more misinformation from Zylo 94-09-08 23:58:24 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"How long has it been since we saw any Jaguar reviews in mags?" - ZyloI've just seen W3D and BSF reviews in recent issues of magazines such asVideoGames and Computer and Video Games. The newest issue of Games Masterreportedly has a review of AVP."And why has nearly every magazine dropped its Jaguar section?" - ZyloName one single major gaming publication which has dropped its Jaguar coverage. As even more proof of how wrong you are, Game Players recently announced thatthey'll begin covering the Jaguar in the near future (next month, I believe)."And Game Fan's last Jaguar Zone was more out of pity than actual interest inthe system." - ZyloThe Jag coverage in the August GF is several pages long and includes dozens ofpictures of Rayman, Iron Soldier, DOOM, Kasumi Ninja, and other games.It's amazing how consistently wrong you can be when you put your mind to it,Zylo.Jason ----- Subj: third party support 94-09-08 23:59:12 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"You just made my point: up until now, we haven't seen squat in terms oflicensee support--we've seen 7 games." - AndrewWelcI agree that the current lack of games for the Jaguar is inexcusable. However,even when CNB was the only 3DO game out, we knew that the system had strongthird party support, because of the licensee list and the games that were indevelopment. Likewise, we know that the Jag has strong third party supportbecause of the licensee list and the games in development. It would have beenunreasonable to say that the 3DO had no third party support when CNB was theonly game out. Similarly, it's unreasonable to say that the Jaguar has no thirdparty support just because few games have made it out so far. If a Jag licenseesigns on in April, the fact that they don't have a game out by the end of thesummer isn't "proof" that they really don't support the system. E-mail some Jagdevelopers from third party companies and ask them yourself whether or notthey're really working on Jag games, Andrew. Take a look at all of the photosof games in development that have been printed in magazines. The third partysupport is there, but the vast majority of it just materialized within the lastfew months.Jason-----Subj: AndrewWelc... 94-09-08 23:59:55 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"From the people I've talk to who aren't 'plugged in', they either have neverheard of Atari/Jaguar, or they have seen it's pathetic display of 5-7 games inEB and dismissed it." - AndrewWelcI agree. And a lot more games will have to come out before that changes, mostlikely.However, despite how few games have come out for the Jag so far, I have yet tosee anybody outside of an online service write off the Jaguar. More storescarry the system, more magazines begin to cover it, and more games areannounced, while, at the same time, online 3DO advocates insist that the systemhas already died. Either the companies, stores, magazines, etc. don't knowsomething that online 3DO advocates do know or the people online are justblowing a lot of hot air. Clearly, it's the latter.Jason-----Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-09 00:15:17 EDT From: RabeetPosted on: America OnlineHere, here. I just played Road Rash late last night and was blown away.Rabeet-----Subj: 3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 00:26:09 EDT From: JBBJRPosted on: America OnlineMy, my, my. The 3D0 owners and stockholders are out in full force, scared outof their wits, on the eve of the Jag's national rollout and release of some biggames.While the slow rollout of games has been frustrating for early Jag owners, thereare good reasons for it. Atari is the first company to release a 64-bit machineand games. They have admitted that it has taken longer than they thought, butpart of it is that developers can do more than they ever could before. In thelong run, I think its going to pay off for Atari to keep developing games likeAvP and KN until they are right and a must buy for games lovers, rather thanrelease inferior games like Way of the Warrior and JP.At $250 or less, the 64 bit, American-made Jag is going to sell well as soon asgames like AvP, KN, Redline Racing, Doom (via modems), Rayman, Iron Soldier,Primal Rage, and the Williams surprises are released, beginning in days orweeks.At $400, the 3D0 is still overpriced for games. 3D0's strategy was to be ascommon as the VCR, only with multimedia titles and they have failed at this andare reduced to competing in the video game market. They are selling it at afiresale price because it hasn't been selling in the US and will be replaced. Word has it that they will release a 64-bit model next year and all 3D0 ownersare bound to lose some degree of compatibility and/or incur additional expense.Plus 3D0 will be head-to-head in price with Sega and Sony. I hope they survive,but it is a REAL question. Besides, their EA and full-motion video games aremediocre.Atari's superior technology at a cheaper price is going to have a place in themarket. By Christmas, you can all judge for yourself. I am just tired of allthis bull from the 3D0ers.-----Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-09 00:29:44 EDT From: Nirwanda Posted on: America OnlineZylo writes: "The Jaguar costs roughly the same as the Jaguar, has no games, andthe games that are out are utterly unplayable. You make the call..."Hehe...BTW, a Big Mac costs roughly the same as a Big Mac, too.Nir-----Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-09 00:30:49 EDT From: GAMER7Posted on: America Online>>> Omit the useless FMV from both games, and you could do either on SNES orGenesis. Look at MKII and Madden '94 <<<When have you ever seen characters the size of those in 3DO Madden moving likethat in an Snes or Genesis game? 22 huge players animate smoothly & controlwell. Nothing slows down even if you turn on the snow & rain which look great.The camera pans & zooms keeping everything in perspective. Madden says so manydifferent things that I still occasionally hear something new after many plays.As for Way of the Warrior just look at the fact that on Snes & Genesis SamShodown they had to cut out the zooming & scaling which 3DO does easily in Way. No way that 16 bit carts could match the size of characters, # of moves, amountof voice & sound etc. etc. All these things plus the "useless" FMV which canadd to the atmosphere & storyline of a game. Games like 16bit MKII represent theculmination of years of learning on those systems while 32bit & Cd based consolestuff is just starting & already superior. Just wait till more of the topcompanies such as EA start publishing on next generation platforms!Gamer7/Dahlsim ----- Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-09 00:31:43 EDT From: Nirwanda Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 writes: "Even Prince99 would be unlikely to claim that the 3DO isalmost as popular as the Genesis, that the 3DO costs less than the Sega CD, thatthe Jaguar has gone up in price and has lost games since its release, etc."... a regular moron-a-thon...Nir-----Subj: Re:Lynx Comparison Not Valid 94-09-09 00:52:59 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineCorrect me if I'm wrong, but the LYNX had superior hardware to GameBoy andGameGear and didn't do a thing with it. Software Etc... refused to deal withAtari after some misunderstanding... Another Atari collectors item. BTW...funnyhow Jason ignores my posts... Hope I didn't upset him. TK ----- Subj: Re:third party support 94-09-09 00:55:27 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> "You just made my point: up until now, we haven't seen squat in > termsof licensee support--we've seen 7 games." - AndrewWelc > > I agree that thecurrent lack of games for the Jaguar is > inexcusable. However, even when CNBwas the only 3DO game out, we > knew that the system had strong third partysupport, because of the > licensee list and the games that were in development. Likewise, we > know that the Jag has strong third party support because of the >licensee list and the games in development.Jason, you've made my point again (very nice of you lately). The 3DO and theJaguar have been around almost exactly the same amount of time.Now look at the differences in terms of strong third party support, andexcellent titles: the Jaguar is floundering with 7 titles, most of them *very*marginal. The 3DO meanwhile has scads of titles available.If the Jaguar has strong third party support, looking at the two system's trackrecord, you'd have to say that the 3DO has super fantabulous extra superlativekick butt support... which I don't think it has.I think the 3DO has good third party support. I think the Jaguar has dismalthird part support.Andrew-----Subj: Re:Slim pickens 94-09-09 00:55:31 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineI agree that the JAG isn't dead... But, it seems that the countless fears basedon Atari's past history that were supposed to be just that, part of the past,have, once again, resurfaced. 6/7 Games...10 Months...little left to be said. TK----- Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 01:00:20 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> My, my, my. The 3D0 owners and stockholders are out in full force, > scaredout of their wits, on the eve of the Jag's national rollout > and release ofsome big games.No offense, but this national rollout thing is really getting almost comical. According to the literature that Atari was sending potential developers back inNovember '93, the national rollout was scheduled for January, 1994.I think the rollout was pushed back because Atari _hasn't_ had the third partysupport they've needed to put together quality titles for the system and make asplash. Indeed, many of the upcoming games for the Jaguar were done undercontract for Atari. ie Atari pays to have someone else create the game.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 01:04:37 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineJBBJR writes:> At $250 or less, the 64 bit, American-made Jag is going to sell well > as soonas games like AvP, KN, Redline Racing, Doom (via modems), > Rayman, IronSoldier, Primal Rage, and the Williams surprises are > released, beginning indays or weeks.1 - The Jaguar's price is good, but still high compared to Sega and Nintendo, sothe games are going to have to be a heck of a lot better than the games on thosesystems for it to fly.2 - 64 bit means nothing. Do yourself a favor and remove it from your gamingvocabulary--people who use it look foolish.3 - American made? Well, I honestly could care less. I believe in capitalism,in other words if America is making a sub-par product (I'm NOT referring to theJag, just in general), then I'll take my money elsewhere. This forces Americancompanies to compete or die, the essence of capitalism.4 - Primal Rage has NOT been confirmed as an upcoming Jaguar title, sorry.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 01:05:28 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America Online"Atari was the first to release a 64 bit.." blah blah blah. 3DO (U.S.) was thefirst to release ANYTHING above 16 bit. Your disclaimer has no bearing on theargument. Kasumi Ninja and Checkered Flag, from what I've heard, are>DISASTERS<. Industry sources. Leave it there. I've heard AvP is the "systemseller" (see: Shockwave, RR, TE, etc...) Unfortunately for JAG wannabe's, Slayeris as good, if not better than AvP and you don't have to wait 'till late Octoberto get it. You can criticize EA all you want, but, at least you have a-->title<-- to criticize. The Jag has had, what, 3 titles in 7 months? Veryimpressive.Do the math. Jag+Jag CD=(minimum) $412.00 3DO 399.00And I don't have to turn my 3DO on and off 10-14 times for it to load. (seeDANJAPAN for confirmation of this problem.) Atari needs help. Badly.TK ----- Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-09 01:06:04 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineI noticed that...but I knew what he meant.TK ----- Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-09 01:11:59 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineI'm not being overly critical of either game. I think that they are both fine interms of playability and overall performance. I'll give you the "zoom" in WOTW,as it's yet to be done on any 16 bit platform. My point was not to belittle the3DO, and it's future, rather to point out that the 32 bit "wars" have onlybegun, and what we've seen so far amounts to little in terms of absolutesuperiority when compared to the older 16 bit platforms. Sure they're moreexperienced, but that's why I said they could be done on those platforms. I-->love<-- my 3DO. I-->loathe<-- my JAG I-->love<-- my Neo Geo (really 16 bit,but Samurai Showdown "zooms", doesn't it...? ) tk ----- Subj: Re:third party support 94-09-09 01:18:56 EDT From: DopeMo Posted on: America Online"" It would have been unreasonable to say that the 3DO had no third partysupport when CNB was the only game out."" --Jason--Yeh but CnB was the first game out, when the system was still very young. Jaghas been out much longer than that and still has only 7 games....thats prettypathetic.SuB zErO 3do club online president-----Subj: Re:third party support 94-09-09 01:29:37 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineHere, here!TK ----- Subj: Re:Zylo... 94-09-09 02:10:00 EDT From: ZyloPosted on: America Online>>>Hehe...BTW, a Big Mac costs roughly the same as a Big Mac, too.<<<Sorry about that...-----Subj: Re:AndrewWelc... 94-09-09 03:12:06 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>However, despite how few games have come out for the Jag so far, I have yetto see anybody outside of an online service write off the Jaguar. <<<This is not necessarily a good thing. In the publications I read (mostlybusiness mags or newspapers), it seems as if Atari is left out of mostdiscussions regarding the VG market. It is possibly not being written offbecause no one is paying much attention to it....-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 03:14:31 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>At $250 or less, the 64 bit, American-made Jag<<<I've said it before...when it comes to consumer electronics, being American-madeis not necessarily a good thing, particularly in the eyes of the consumer. Japan has the reputation for quality and performance in this area.-----Subj: Re: Primal Rage to rescue Jaguar 94-09-09 04:11:12 EDT From: SPSCOOTER Posted on: America Online>>>Game Players will begin offering full coverage of Jaguar and 3DO starting inNovember. In their October issue there is a brief news clip that states thatAtari has begun work on PRIMAL RAGE for Jag.<<<Thom21Oh really? Here's what I read in October's Game Player's..."On the Jaguar front, it's highly likely that Atari will develop Primal Rage forthe Jaguar. Atari did the programming for the arcade game. Primal Rage iscurrently one of the the hottest arcade titles."First off, it does not say that Atari has begun work on Primal Rage, but insteadit is highly likely they will. There is a big difference. Second, it is obviousfrom this brief news clip that Game Player's believes that Atari and Atarigames(now called Time Warner Interactive) are the same company-they are not. Atari Games only makes arcade games and is now called TWI. Atari makes the AtariJaguar and has no logical connection with Atari Games/TWI. I say 'no logicalconnection' because the name Atari has no logical connection. However, Ataridoes have a connection with TWI. Time Warner is a major investor of the AtariJaguar. So I would say its pretty much a sure thing that Primal Rage will cometo the Jaguar, and also the 3DO. Why the 3DO? Well Time Warner is also a major3DO investor. Atari Games/TWI plans to develop several arcade titles using the3DO and Atari Jaguar engines.>>>Since this one was made by atari using the Jag engine, I am hoping Atari isable to make whatever changes are necessary and get it out of the gate beforeChristmas. This one would really sell systems!!!!!<<<Thom21Do you just make this stuff up? Primal Rage does not use the Jaguar engine, thiswas confirmed by TWI. TWI has said there will be an announcement\display at theWinter CES in January. A spring 95' release date sounds reasonable. And yesPrimal Rage will sell Jaguars and 3DO's big time.P.S. Sorry to be so rude but I'm sick and tired of people thinking that Atariand Atari Games(now TWI, thankgod) are the same company. You would be too if youheard every other day, while playing Primal Rage, "Wow this game is so cool. The graphics are great. Oh look its an Atari game, they make the Jaguar. Cool,Primal Rage is an Atari Jaguar game." Believe it or not I hear this dribblenearly every time I go to play Primal Rage. Its that darn Atari games logo. Ohwell life goes on.-----Subj: Re: Primal Rage to rescue Jaguar 94-09-09 04:12:19 EDT From: SPSCOOTER Posted on: America Online>>>Game Players will begin offering full coverage of Jaguar and 3DO starting inNovember. In their October issue there is a brief news clip that states thatAtari has begun work on PRIMAL RAGE for Jag.<<<Thom21Oh really? Here's what I read in October's Game Player's..."On the Jaguar front, it's highly likely that Atari will develop Primal Rage forthe Jaguar. Atari did the programming for the arcade game. Primal Rage iscurrently one of the the hottest arcade titles."First off, it does not say that Atari has begun work on Primal Rage, but insteadit is highly likely they will. There is a big difference. Second, it is obviousfrom this brief news clip that Game Player's believes that Atari and Atarigames(now called Time Warner Interactive) are the same company-they are not. Atari Games only makes arcade games and is now called TWI. Atari makes the AtariJaguar and has no logical connection with Atari Games/TWI. I say 'no logicalconnection' because the name Atari has no logical connection. However, Ataridoes have a connection with TWI. Time Warner is a major investor of the AtariJaguar. So I would say its pretty much a sure thing that Primal Rage will cometo the Jaguar, and also the 3DO. Why the 3DO? Well Time Warner is also a major3DO investor. Atari Games/TWI plans to develop several arcade titles using the3DO and Atari Jaguar engines.>>>Since this one was made by atari using the Jag engine, I am hoping Atari isable to make whatever changes are necessary and get it out of the gate beforeChristmas. This one would really sell systems!!!!!<<<Thom21Do you just make this stuff up? Primal Rage does not use the Jaguar engine, thiswas confirmed by TWI. TWI has said there will be an announcement\display at theWinter CES in January. A spring 95' release date sounds reasonable. And yesPrimal Rage will sell Jaguars and 3DO's big time.P.S. Sorry to be so rude but I'm sick and tired of people thinking that Atariand Atari Games(now TWI, thankgod) are the same company. You would be too if youheard every other day, while playing Primal Rage, "Wow this game is so cool. The graphics are great. Oh look its an Atari game, they make the Jaguar. Cool,Primal Rage is an Atari Jaguar game." Believe it or not I hear this dribblenearly every time I go to play Primal Rage. Its that darn Atari games logo. Ohwell life goes on.-----Subj: AvP Info 94-09-09 08:09:16 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineFolks,I grabbed some juicy news re: AvP from the 'net. Travis Guy, Atari ExplorerOnline editor, has this to say about AvP:> If it goes into production today (Friday [9/9/94]), it would likely > be lateOctober before it makes it to dealer's shelves.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:KRRvision... 94-09-09 09:31:23 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> I seriously doubt that the LaserActive has _lost_ games since it cameout, Keith. :) As far as game quality is concerned, I wouldn't know. I'venever played any LaserActive games. - Jason <<<Yes it has lost 2 games, the names currently escape me, they were cancelled.That's my notion of lost games. I don't think you would enjoy most Laseractivegames, for the most part they are along the lines of Microcosm with much betterbackground graphics and some computer generated sprites floating on top...-----Subj: Re:Primal Rage to rescue Jaguar 94-09-09 10:32:11 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> In their October issue there is a brief news clip that states that Atarihas begun work on PRIMAL RAGE for Jag. <<<I thought Atari Games and Atari Corp were totally different companies. Does thishave something to do with Time Warner Interactive ?>>> Since this one was made by atari using the Jag engine, I am hoping Atari isable to make whatever changes are necessary and get it out of the gate beforeChristmas. This one would really sell systems !!!!! <<<I wasn't aware that this game used the Jaguar for it's internals, are you sureof this ? It may sell some systems, though I have yet to see it (Primal Rage)anywhere in my area...-----Subj: Re:the Jaguar 94-09-09 10:38:43 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> Why have we heard nothing of the system dying from the gaming media? AsI've said before, it's only in online areas that 3DO owners participate in thatthe Jaguar is said to be dead or dying. Outside of online services, there's afar more optimistic, realistic view of the Jaguar. - jason <<<The gaming media has not pronounced the Jag dead... they just don't talk aboutthe Jag much at all anymore. It's fallen into the CDi trench.The gamers and public outside of online forums are generally not as wellinformed. But even at that there is concern about the lack of games for thesystem. I agree that the Jaguar is taking a beating on all the major onlineservices, but then why shouldn't Atari take some heat ? 3DO and it's earlyadopters sure did, I know I took a lot of heat from new Jag owners last yearwhen I joined the $700 club...-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 10:57:45 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> My, my, my. The 3D0 owners and stockholders are out in full force, scaredout of their wits, on the eve of the Jag's national rollout and release of somebig games. - JBBJR <<<When is the national, he he he, rollout supposed to be ? I assume since you saideve, it must be tomorrow the 10th ??? I think Atari should dispense with thisnational rollout crap and try to rollout some games! And 3DO supporters andstock holders have nothing to fear... so you issue a press release that says theJaguar is now available nationally!!! That does not change a thing...>>> While the slow rollout of games has been frustrating for early Jag owners,there are good reasons for it. Atari is the first company to release a 64-bitmachine and games. They have admitted that it has taken longer than theythought, but part of it is that developers can do more than they ever couldbefore. - JBBJR <<<No I think the slow rollout of games is due to the fact that Atari failed to puttogether adequate tools for developers to program this box. Over the months wehave heard several developers mention the power of the Jag, if you can get toit. Heck even the vaunted ID Software had to admit they were toning down Doombecause of these difficulties.The Jag may possibly have a raw horsepower advantage, which is open to debate,but almost every agrees that 3DO has a much better development environment.>>> Word has it that they will release a 64-bit model next year and all 3D0owners are bound to lose some degree of compatibility and/or incur additionalexpense. - JBBJR <<<This is total bunk... Jason, I think we have met Prince's shadow... (A WOTWjoke folks...).>>> Plus 3D0 will be head-to-head in price with Sega and Sony. I hope theysurvive, but it is a REAL question. - JBBJR <<<Listen... hear... understand. 3DO will not be in price competition with Sony andSega, Panasonic, Sanyo, Samsung, Goldstar and to an extent Creative Labs, willbe. In a price war I would put my money on the 3DO cartel...-----Subj: third party support 94-09-09 12:07:37 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Jason, you've made my point again (very nice of you lately). The 3DO and theJaguar have been around almost exactly the same amount of time.Now look at the differences in terms of strong third party support, andexcellent titles:" - AndrewWelcYou keep missing my point here, so let me state this in a different way.If a licensee signs on in April and doesn't have a game out in September, doesthat mean that the licensee doesn't really support the system? Or does it meanthat the licensee simply signed on late and therefore won't release any gamesfor the system until later on?Again, Andrew, E-mail Beyond Games, Argonaut, and other Jaguar licensees and askthem what they're doing in terms of Jaguar game development. Read the JaguarList, Internet, and other online areas on which Jaguar programmers often post. Take a look at the pictures of dozens of Jaguar games that are in development inrecent issues of gaming magazines. Some of the games, such as Tradewest's, arealready being advertised. As I said before, the third party support is there,but the vast majority of it showed up late. ~150 licensees and ~100 games indevelopment is strong third party support whether the games are out yet or not. Don't confuse a late arrival of third party support for a lack of third partysupport.JasonBTW - I _have_ E-mailed Jaguar licensees, I've talked to some on the phone, Iregularly read gaming publications and Internet, and I read the Jaguar Listoccassionally. Anybody who says that this system doesn't have strong thirdparty support is saying it out of ignorance.-----Subj: Atari and the upcoming games 94-09-09 12:08:34 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"I think the rollout was pushed back because Atari _hasn't_ had the third partysupport they've needed to put together quality titles for the system and make asplash. Indeed, many of the upcoming games for the Jaguar were done undercontract for Atari. ie Atari pays to have someone else create the game." -AndrewWelcI thought you'd given up on this theory long ago, Andrew.The fact of the matter is that the games that are being handled by Atari itselfmake up a small minority of the games that are in development for the Jaguar. To paint a picture of "many upcoming games" being paid for by Atari, as thoughsuch games are anything _but_ a small minority of the games in development, isextremely misleading. Name the games that Atari is paying for, Andrew. I'llname five third party games that Atari _isn't_ paying for for each one you namethat they are paying for.Once again, we also see the contradiction where people try to suggest that Atariis on the verge of bankruptcy, while at the same time suggesting that they'rethrowing out money like Santa Claus to any company they can get to make a Jaguargame for them. If a significant number of the ~100 Jaguar games in developmentare paid for by Atari, then where is Atari getting the money and why are many ofthose companies saying that they're making the games on their own? If thereisn't a significant portion of those ~100 games in development that are beingpaid for by Atari, then _why are you suggesting that there is_, Andrew??? Thevast majority of upcoming games are not being handled by Atari, yet you suggestjust the opposite.Like I said before, the Jaguar bashing has gone way overboard. It's gotten tothe point where many of the people criticizing the system have almost no concernfor accuracy or rationality. People see an opportunity to bash the system, sothey just bash it, without checking their facts first. Jason-----Subj: ACLAM... 94-09-09 12:09:19 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"It is possibly not being written off because no one is paying much attention toit." - ACLAMMost, if not all, gaming publications know about the Jaguar and the stores andthird party companies that deal with the system certainly know about it. Theyhaven't written the system off. In fact, more stores are carrying it, magazinesare expanding their coverage of it, and more licensees are announcing more gamesfor it. The industry thinks that the Jaguar has a chance. Much of the online3DO community wants to declare the system dead. Who should we believe? I knowwho I believe and it certainly isn't Prince99, MARLIN CHOW, Henry Grayhack,Zylo, and the rest of the online 3DO zealots.Jason-----Subj: KRRvision... 94-09-09 12:32:57 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"The gaming media has not pronounced the Jag dead... they just don't talk aboutthe Jag much at all anymore." - KRRvisionThat's simply not true. The magazines have had W3D and BSF reviews and SCEScoverage lately. Game Informer just had an entire article on their recent visitto Atari. EGM covers the system more than they used to and Game Playersreportedly plans to start covering the system in the near future. The coverageis expanding, but it obviously won't reach SNES/Genesis levels until more gamesare out."I agree that the Jaguar is taking a beating on all the major online services,but then why shouldn't Atari take some heat ?" - KRRvisionI have no problem with people criticizing the Jaguar when it deserves criticism. What I have a problem with is people bashing the system. The current lack ofgames for the Jaguar doesn't justify claims that the system is dead, that it hasno third party support, that it's gone up in price since its release, etc. Thefact that the Jaguar deserves criticism doesn't mean that people should throwall accuracy and rationality out the window and just mindlessly bash the system. The criticism has gone overboard, changing from legitimate criticism tobashing.Jason-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 13:16:01 EDT From: JBBJRPosted on: America Online>>> Word has it that they will release a 64-bit model next year and all 3D0owners are bound to lose some degree of compatibility and/or incur additionalexpense. - JBBJR <<<This is total bunk... Jason, I think we have met Prince's shadow... (A WOTWjoke folks...). -KRRvisionThere are plenty of posts and discussions on the Internet about 3D0 releasing anew 64-bit model. Go see for yourself in Newsgroups.-----Subj: Moved Message 94-09-09 13:54:31 EDT From: DangardAce Posted on: America OnlineSubj: Re:JBBJR 94-09-09 00:38:53 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineSome of you who have bought 3DO's after buying a Jaguar should have had theexperience of purchasing a 3DO, listening to internet & AOL claims of Jagssuperiority, and *then* buying a Jaguar only to get Cybermorph. Disappointmentis quite an understatement - I started believing those rumours about the 68000[indeed CM was programmed primarily in 68k code] and was ready to sell whenTempest 2000 came along and saved the machine. Unfortunately nothingsubstantial has come out since then and I haven't played the Jaguar in 2+months. Seems every week something great comes along for 3DO though. Heck justin the past few weeks I have bought Road Rash & WOTW and now need to invest morehard earned $$ in Slayer.Interestingly I haven't felt the incentive to spent $.01 on Wolf3D or BSF yet Iintend to run out and get AvP instantly. What does this say about the qualityof the current crop of Jag games? Not much, kids. Frankly they suck.-----Subj: Jaguar & the myth therein 94-09-09 15:15:08 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America OnlineJBBJR said:>>>>My, my, my. The 3D0 owners and stockholders are out in full force, scaredout of their wits, on the eve of the Jag's national rollout and release of somebig games.<<<<I am a Jaguar and 3DO owner, but I am sick of the "national rollout" farce.Jaguars are readily available *now* What differentiates a national rollout froma product already being available in numerous locations for sale to the consumerbuyer? The product *has* been available, and there is *no* national rollout. IfAtari wishes to play this pathetic little marketing game, then more power tothem.>>>>While the slow rollout of games has been frustrating for early Jag owners,there are good reasons for it. Atari is the first company to release a 64-bitmachine and games.<<<<Irrelevant. The fact that the Jaguar is 64-bit has nothing to do with the slow,painful trickle of games. That is merely a justification for the late deliveryof games. Atari released the Jaguar before they had a solid foundation of gamesin production. I am not blaming them for logically competing with 3DO at thesame time (instead of giving 3DO a huge lead time), but it cost them dearly insecured developer lines and a consistent initial flow of games entering themarket.>>>>They have admitted that it has taken longer than they thought, but part ofit is that developers can do more than they ever could before. In the long run,I think its going to pay off for Atari to keep developing games like AvP and KNuntil they are right and a must buy for games lovers, rather than releaseinferior games like Way of the Warrior and JP.<<<<I agree that WotW and JP are inferior products :), but let's not try to use thatas another lame justification as to why Atari is late in delivering games. Theyrushed the system to market, and they are paying the price. Yes, I think AvP isgoing to be great (and I will be there bright and early to pick up my copy), butlet's not resort to the childish attack of putting down the 3DO to justify theJaguar's current shortcomings. In the same vein, I do not like the reversal ofthe same ploy either.>>>>At $250 or less, the 64 bit, American-made Jag is going to sell well as soonas games like AvP, KN, Redline Racing, Doom (via modems), Rayman, Iron Soldier,Primal Rage, and the Williams surprises are released, beginning in days orweeks. <<<<I could care **zero** where the Jaguar is made. That is another weak attack. AllI want is the best product for my hard earned money. I don't care *where* itcomes from. If you advocate the purchase of American only goods, then I supposeall those other countries we export our products to should also stick tointernally made products. I am sure that would even out our balance of trade,hmmm? What is this reference to Williams? The only 32-bit platform so fargetting MK2 is the 32X. I would *hope* it would come out for the Jaguar (and inthe interim, offer gamers a real joypad).-----Subj: Jaguar and the myth therein #2 94-09-09 15:20:30 EDT From: ByteHed Posted on: America Online>>>>At $400, the 3D0 is still overpriced for games. 3D0's strategy was to be ascommon as the VCR, only with multimedia titles and they have failed at this andare reduced to competing in the video game market. They are selling it at afiresale price because it hasn't been selling in the US and will bereplaced.<<<<Obviously no realization of costs scale, optimization of processing, andstreamlining assembly. Over time, the ability to produce a product at a cheaperprice is always experienced. As a result, prices plummet, and companies canstill experience a appreciable gross profit. Your reason above is grossspeculation at the very extreme, and it has no merit or direction.>>>>Word has it that they will release a 64-bit model next year and all 3D0owners are bound to lose some degree of compatibility and/or incur additionalexpense. <<<<Gross speculation part 2. By all evidence currently available, the 64-bitupgrade is an add-on for the expansion bus (along with a stand alone 64-bitmodel). You must also realize that the 3DO's OS resides on the CD-ROM, notburned. This allows for modifying the OS to allow the inclusion of the newhardware. The OS that upgraded 3DOs run will be the same as the other model.Unless you wish to disprove 3DOs own statements?>>>>Plus 3D0 will be head-to-head in price with Sega and Sony. I hope theysurvive, but it is a REAL question. Besides, their EA and full-motion videogames are mediocre. <<<<And in the same vein, Jaguar will be in head to head war with Nintendo and their$250 Ultra64. I hope Atari survives, but it is a REAL question. Besides, Atari'scurrent releases (besides T2k) are mediocre.>>>>Atari's superior technology at a cheaper price is going to have a place inthe market. By Christmas, you can all judge for yourself. I am just tired ofall this bull from the 3D0ers.<<<<3DO's superior technology will allow 3DO and Jaguar to compete successfully andBOTH will have a place in the market. I am just tired of all this bull fromJaguar users.-----Subj: TK3DOFROUM : 94-09-09 15:21:57 EDT From: Hardman19 Posted on: America OnlineIn respoonse to your posting concerning "3Do last Grasp"NUF SAID :)As a software developer and software retail manager I have heard the same aboutKasumi Ninja, Brutal Sports Football, Ultra Vortex, and Checkered Flag. What isit that I've heard? Not much that is positive I assure you. But like I said inmy "Slim Pickens" posting AvP will be the system seller and could make the Jagan intelligent puchase...Till then...nuf said, I think the Jag is the onegasping for air.-----Subj: Re:KRRvision... 94-09-09 17:42:32 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> The coverage is expanding, but it obviously won't reach SNES/Genesis levelsuntil more games are out. <<<Looking back further than recent issues you are right. I think it's myperception that the coverage has not been there. Relative to Sega, Nintendo andeven 3DO, Jag has had less coverage.>>> The criticism has gone overboard, changing from legitimate criticism tobashing. <<<Yep... And some of it is very funny.-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 17:58:05 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> There are plenty of posts and discussions on the Internet about 3D0releasing a new 64-bit model. Go see for yourself in Newsgroups. - JBBJR <<<I am well aware of the 64 bit upgrade... What was bunk was your claim ofincompatibility. The upgrade is for the current 3DO model, a seperate player mayalso be offered. The 3DO standard calls for system compatibility through theOS...-----Subj: Re:third party support 94-09-09 18:50:29 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> ~150 licensees and ~100 games in development is strong third party > supportwhether the games are out yet or not. Don't confuse a late > arrival of thirdparty support for a lack of third party support.Firstly, we've already confirm, via a Jaguar developer, that you don't have toeven have a Jaguar development station to become an official Jaguar licensee.You see, when a developer signs up, part of the approval process is that theyare asked to list the projects they plan to work on -- they do this even beforethey get a development kit (if they do). Hence your "100 games indevelopment".And my point still stands: the third party support, 1 game (Brutal SportsFootball) in nine months--the other titles were all comissioned by Atari, andthus do not count as "strong" licensee support--is horrible.It is one thing to sign an agreement and say you're working on a title. It isanother thing altogether to deliver and release the title.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:Atari and the upcoming games 94-09-09 18:55:35 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America Online> The fact of the matter is that the games that are being handled > byAtari itself make up a small minority of the games that are in > development forthe Jaguar. To paint a picture of "many upcoming > games" being paid for byAtari, as though such games are anything > _but_ a small minority of the gamesin development, is extremely > misleading. Name the games that Atari is payingfor, Andrew. I'll > name five third party games that Atari _isn't_ paying forfor each > one you name that they are paying for.That doesn't change the FACT that Atari is paying for many of the upcomingJaguar games (AvP, Club Drive, Kasumi Ninja, etc).The Jaguar release list which has been posted on the Internet lists MORE titlescoming from Atari than coming from third parties. Would you like to see itJason?Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:Atari and the upcoming games 94-09-09 19:00:33 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineJasonTE3 writes:> Like I said before, the Jaguar bashing has gone way overboard. > It'sgotten to the point where many of the people criticizing the > system havealmost no concern for accuracy or rationality. People > see an opportunity tobash the system, so they just bash it, without > checking their facts first.[and]> Anybody who says that this system doesn't have strong third party > support issaying it out of ignorance.::sigh:: Just when I thought you could have an honest debate without thatincredibly disillusioned superiority complex kicking in again. Oh well.Cheers,Andrew-----Subj: Re:ACLAM... 94-09-09 19:24:16 EDT From: ACLAMPosted on: America Online>>>Most, if not all, gaming publications know about the Jaguar and the storesand third party companies that deal with the system certainly know about it.<<<I think in my original post, I was commenting about the non-gaming media. Regardless, there are a couple of reasons why the gaming media will not writeoff a system, such as that they need more heavy advertisers or the more systemsthey have to write about, the better for their circulation.-----Subj: ByteHed... 94-09-09 21:20:02 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America OnlineWell said, ByteHed. I agree with nearly everything you had to say in your"Jaguar and the myth therein" posts, except for one line."I am just tired of all this bull from Jaguar users." - ByteHedConsidering the kind of trash we've heard lately from 3DO owners bashing theJaguar, I think that it's mostly 3DO users who are providing the bull. Idisagree with a lot of what JBBJR has said, but what he's said is fairly tame incomparison to what we've heard from Zylo, Prince99, and others on the 3DO side.Jason-----Subj: KRRvision... 94-09-09 21:20:49 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online">>> The coverage is expanding, but it obviously won't reach SNES/Genesislevels until more games are out. <<<Looking back further than recent issues you are right." - KRRvisionRecent issues of EGM, GameFan, VideoGames, Game Informer, and other magazineshave Jaguar coverage. It's not just in older issues."Relative to Sega, Nintendo and even 3DO, Jag has had less coverage." -KRRvisionWith only seven games being out for the system, that's understandable.">>> The criticism has gone overboard, changing from legitimate criticism tobashing. <<<Yep... And some of it is very funny." - KRRvisionI agree that it can be amusing to those of us who know that the bashing isn'taccurate. When you consider, though, that there are people reading this folderwho don't know much about the systems and who may actually believe some of thenonsense coming from people like Zylo, JBBJR, and Prince99...it's not so funny. There's a point where the bashing just gets really old - on both sides.Jason-----Subj: Andrew... 94-09-09 22:03:56 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"You see, when a developer signs up, part of the approval process is that theyare asked to list the projects they plan to work on -- they do this even beforethey get a development kit (if they do). Hence your '100 games indevelopment'." - AndrewWelcI've seen pictures of around 50 games in development and I've heard confirmationof a lot of other games in development, even though I've seen no pictures ofthem. For example, Battlemorph, Creature Shock, and other games are confirmedto be in development, though I haven't yet seen any pictures of those games."It is one thing to sign an agreement and say you're working on a title. It isanother thing altogether to deliver and release the title." - AndrewWelcDon't change the subject in the middle of the discussion. We agree that thequantity of games out so far is poor. Quantity of games out and third partysupport are not the same issue, though. As I said before, if a company signs onin April, the fact that they have no games out yet in September is by no means"proof" that the company doesn't really support the system. You're equatingquantity of games out with third party support - a comparison that shouldn't bemade. Yes Tradewest hasn't released a single Jaguar game yet, but that doesn'ttake away from the fact that Tradewest supports the system and is developinggames such as Double Dragon V and Troy Aikman Football for it. In fact, thoseparticular Jaguar games are already being advertised by Tradewest. The factthat they aren't out yet by no means translates into Tradewest not reallysupporting the Jaguar. This also applies to dozens of other Jaguar licensees."That doesn't change the FACT that Atari is paying for many of the upcomingJaguar games (AvP, Club Drive, Kasumi Ninja, etc)." - AndrewWelcThe fact is that the upcoming Jag games that are being paid for by Atari areonly a small minority of those games that are in development for the system. That being the case, Andrew, what's your point in bringing this issue up? Itseems that you intended to suggest that few companies are supporting the Jaguarwithout being paid for it. If that's what you're implying, you're mistaken."The Jaguar release list which has been posted on the Internet lists MORE titlescoming from Atari than coming from third parties." - AndrewWelcIf you're referring to the list I have in mind, that list is an incomplete listof games that are due out soon. It's _not_ a complete list of all Jaguar gamesin development. As I said, Andrew, name the upcoming games that Atari is payingfor and I'll name _many_ more that Atari _isn't_ paying for.Jason-----Subj: ACLAM... 94-09-09 22:04:37 EDT From: JasonTE3 Posted on: America Online"Regardless, there are a couple of reasons why the gaming media will not writeoff a system, such as that they need more heavy advertisers or the more systemsthey have to write about, the better for their circulation." - ACLAMNot only have the magazines not written the system off, but they cover itregularly and, in the case of Game Player and GameFan, they're in the process of_expanding_ their Jaguar coverage.You also have yet to explain why the support from third party companies andretail stores continues to grow, ACLAM. As I said before, the industry thinksthat the Jaguar has a chance, but the online 3DO community wants to declare thesystem dead. Who are we to believe? I know who I side with.Jason-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 22:17:30 EDT From: JBBJRPosted on: America OnlineKRRvision says: "What was bunk was your claim of incompatibility. The upgrade isfor the current 3DO model, a seperate player may also be offered. The 3DOstandard calls for system compatibility through the OS..."Computers with 286 and 486 chips can also claim "system compatibility throughthe OS." With this new product being touted, anyone buying a 3D0 should knowthat they are buying an underpowered machine that will require an upgrade ofunknown cost and at unknown compatibilty, if 3D0 and its partners like ATT,ooops, last long enough to make it.-----Subj: Correction......:( 94-09-09 22:56:20 EDT From: Thom21Posted on: America OnlineOne to admit when I make mistakes....it seem that I didn't get here before a fewhad already pointed out the error of my ways.well here is my correction anyway....I'm afraid after closer examination I got things a little mixed up. I normallytry to print accurate info, but my Primal Rage announcement, as has been statedin this section is not quite accurate. I glance though LARGE amounts of gameand game system info every day and the small anouncement I stated from GamePlayers was not an announcement but just speculation. IT said that it wasLIKELY that Primal Rage would be coming out to the Jag. I should have read thisagain to verify it before I made my posting. In my defense however I would liketo add that I feel it is silly for a game magazine that I pay money for to printsuch a GENERAL statement as "it is likely". with all the info out there onewould think games like game players would print factual statements as like "suchand such is coming out" instead of speculative statements like the one for jagthat was printed. Again, I'm sorry for jumping the gun and saying that Atari wasbeginning work on Primal Rage. Also I was under the impression that primal ragewas not made using the Jag. It was appearently developed before Time WarnerInteractive signed the deal use the Jag enginge for arcade games.a bad day for me......oh my Thom-----Subj: Re: TK3DOForum 94-09-09 22:59:44 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"Omit the >USELESS< texture mapping in John Madden and you have a 16 bit game."- TK3DOForumHa! Take that >useless texture mapping< out of DOOM and it could be done on anAtari 2600. Frankly you *could* do DOOM with line graphics and it *would sucksomething majorly fierce* even if the gameplay were identical. Fullyinteractive EYE CANDY is everything in 1994. Live with it. We aren't upgradingto 32/64 bit systems so that they can play a better game of chess! I haveMadden on the Genesis and it >sucks something major< v/ Madden on the 3DO. Samething but to an even greater extent for Road Rash. Same argument but even morepronounced for StarFox v/ TE.-----Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-09 23:02:18 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America Online"Atari is the first company to release a 64-bit machine and games." - JBBJRInteresting. I wasn't aware the 68000 was a 64 bit chip :)-----Subj: Jaguar is 64 bit 94-09-09 23:27:15 EDT From: Thom21Posted on: America OnlineFor those 3DO owners who do not own Jag who now want to claim that Jaguar is not64-bit machine.....It has a 64-bit bus and some other 64-bit components. The debate has beenoccuring on the internet. IF you want more specifics check there.......Anyway, the Jaguar is the closest to a 64-bit machine than any system out there todayand according to most of the programmers I've talked with it is considered a64-bit machine. The Jag like the 3DO will need an upgrade eventually to keep itup to date with Ultra 64 and PS-X. Atari is already rumored to be working onthis...... Truth is however that by Christmas the games will be the decidingfactor for the systems not how many bits System A is vs. Sytem B so both 3DO andAtari better get the best games out by then........ Thom-----Subj: Re:Road Rash 94-09-10 00:21:20 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineGenesis=68000 CPU NEO GEO=68000 CPUI've seen that scaling on the NEO... 'Nuff said. TK ----- Subj: Re: TK3DOForum 94-09-10 00:38:45 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineMadden on the Genesis "sucks something major" compared to the 3DO unitl you playit. At least it's challenging on the Genesis. Eye candy is just that...eyecandy... A game, however, is a game and PLAYABILITY is the thing. (see-->NEO GEO) TK-----Subj: System Comparison 94-09-10 01:25:01 EDT From: TK3DOFORUM Posted on: America OnlineSubject Best Title (3DO/JAG) Overall Comments: Shooter Shockwave/T2000 T2000 JAG's best/only RPG AID/ ----- AID Nothing available for jag Sports JMF/Brutal Sp. Ft. JMF Brutal is 16 bit-lookingPuzzle Incredible/Dino Incredible none Simulation SWC/SW/ Cyber SWC No debate Fighting game WOTW/------ WOTW No Fighting on the JAG 3D Sim Slayer/Wolf 3D Slayer maybe DOOM will help Children's PP/----- PP Not relevant to me but....Racing Game Road Rash/---- RR Another category without Atari Info/instr. TK's Golf/----- TK " " "Best arcade simulation: Dragon's Lair/Raiden DL By a hair...Raiden was just too small FMV Game MDMII/---- MDM II No comparisons availableSystem comparison: Jag 64 bit w/cd upgrade available 3DO 32 bit w/64 bit upgradeanalysis: EVEN 3rd Party: 3DO: 500 + JAG: 150 EDGE: 3DO Software availability: 3DO over 30 Jag 6/7 EDGE:3DOTotal edge (all categories) 3DO wins 13:1 Debate it. Please, without talkingabout "national release and things that may happen" TK ----- Subj: Re:3D0's Last Gasp 94-09-10 01:32:13 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> Computers with 286 and 486 chips can also claim "system compatibilitythrough the OS." - JBBJR <<<Yes, so what's your point ???>>> With this new product being touted, anyone buying a 3D0 should know thatthey are buying an underpowered machine that will require an upgrade of unknowncost and at unknown compatibilty - JBBJR <<<Underpowered machine ??? That's non sense. The upgrade is merely the nextlogical progression in the 3DO standard. The hardware must continue to moveforward, this is a key component of 3DO's strategy. Move ahead with technologywithout abandoning the users and software that came before.New 3DO buyers are clearly getting the most advanced home gaming system, theupgrade insures that this will be the case in the future.As for unknown cost, even if it were to hit at $200, it would be less expensivethan the complete and total replacement of the system and it's library. Whatwill Atari do with it's rumored Jag 2 ??? The lack of an OS, and the ability toprogram directly to the "metal" are great, until the underlying componentschange.>>> if 3D0 and its partners like ATT, ooops, last long enough to make it. -JBBJR <<<LOL. Well the AT&T stab is amusing, but the loss of AT&T as an active player israther small. Don't forget that AT&T chose to leave the interactive market alltogether, even the lucrative Sega market...-----Subj: Re:System Comparison 94-09-10 01:36:26 EDT From: KRRvision Posted on: America Online>>> Sports JMF/Brutal Sp. Ft. JMF Brutal is 16 bit-looking <<<C'mon!!! You really think Brutal Sports Football is a sports game ??? I wouldclassify it more as an action game. Not much sport involved in it at all...-----Subj: Re:Jaguar is 64 bit 94-09-10 06:26:03 EDT From: AndrewWelc Posted on: America OnlineThom21 writes:> It has a 64-bit bus and some other 64-bit components. The debate > has beenoccuring on the internet. IF you want more specifics check >there.......Anyway, the Jaguar is the closest to a 64-bit machine > than anysystem out there today and according to most of the > programmersFirst of all, it is arguable whether the Jaguar is "64 bits" or not. However...The point is Thom21, who the heck cares of the Jaguar is "64 bit" by anyone'sdefinition? "64 bit" doesn't make a system faster than even a 16 bit system --it all depends on the entire architecture.The problem here is, quite frankly, that the general public is trying to measuresystems in terms of bits. This makes absolutely no sense, from any standpoint.::sigh::Andrew-----Subj: Re:Jaguar is 64 bit 94-09-10 11:09:57 EDT From: ClayCip Posted on: America OnlineThe bottom line is that the majority of the Jaguar titles are coded to the 68000chip. These include Raiden, Cybermorph, Dino-Dudes, and Crescent Galaxy. Theseare by any definition primarily 16 bit games supported by the occasional call toa coprocessor. Atari blatantly lied by claiming on the back of the Raiden box,a 99%+ 68k game, that this was a killer 64 bit conversion of the arcade title. Sure the Jaguar might be capable of performing like a true 64 bit unit but whocares if the released games are tired old 68k titles coded up by rejects fromthe SNES/Gen world that Atari was lucky enough to steal away? Again Jag haspotential to deliver 64 bit firepower but right now its current game library isjust sorry and in some cases looks and plays 8 bit (Raiden) or 16 bit (BSF,CM).-----Subj: Re:Jaguar bashing 94-09-10 14:39:17 EDT From: Zhusain Posted on: America OnlineWhy not bash atari and the jaguar? Just look at the games available for it. Raiden, Cybermorph, BSF Wolfenstien, Dino Duds and Trevor McFur. Real greatgames there, NOT! Tempest was decent. Hmmm, that's every game available. Nowsee why I bash atari. Zhusain-----¿E.kδrüèaït4╡7]ä"xñ≈óÿBgZ╗à╢╫ÖgfαÜ<ç[KæL2°┌ë▄╓▐}╙rÇdi°φá\
